Is there a police psychology problem??

Topic: Is there a police psychology problem?? (Read 114144 times)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #175 – 2014-12-02, 19:10:19

So in Smilet's mindset shooting to wound isn't on and what a diabolical argument corner that one is! As for his stance that "we respect our police" (totally seemingly) that is a case of anything in a uniform can do what he likes. The military and police are getting far too close in America and not a good sign. All this nonsense of army weaponry and army vehicles is over the top nonsense and it gives the world a picture of the country that is beyond his common sense. And anyway he is a terrorist supporter so morality is lost somewhere in his world. That we effectively cannot assess the number of police killings says something very iffy and that killing someone or simply shooting at the first opportunity is semi-regular does not give any sensible person an open house that the organisation is A1. Two of the incidents I detailed were without any discussion just kill the person. That there are so many over there who see this as normal is a terrible blight on the country and shocking.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #176 – 2014-12-02, 21:05:57

Quote from: Jochie on 2014-12-03, 02:50:30

Is it too much to ask for the US police to be civilized or to be trained to become civilized as is in most first class countries?

Firstly, acting civilized can only be a reflection of present day civilization.

The police are not trained to be uncivilized, they are trained to deal with the the class of criminals that exist today, & how they act directly reflects that.

A demonstrator throwing a garbage pail through a store's plate glass window is most probably going to be treated the same as someone that just beat up a 80 year old woman after viciously raping her in the street.

But, back to your very thoughtful suggestion.

"Is it too much to ask for the US police to be civilized or to be trained to become civilized as is in most first class countries"

I think it could be plausible/doable under one (1) condition ------ under the proviso that say a short period has passed where the criminals have themselves demonstrated that they will be ~~courteous & respectful~~ as you put it, 'civilized'.

Until then, expect nothing, for that's exactly what you'll get.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-12-03, 07:10:19

So in Smiley's mindset shooting to wound isn't on and what a diabolical argument corner that one is! As for his stance that "we respect our police" (totally seemingly) that is a case of anything in a uniform can do what he likes.

'Shooting to wound' is something you can only expect to see on your favorite 'cops & robbers' TV show, or in a movie direct from Hollywood.

Anyone actually knowledgeable on the subject, as attested to here , will most probably suggest that all the cheese has simply slid off yer cracker!

But hey, RJ .............. why don't you put your money where your mouth is??!!

I'm callin' you out here & now --- enough of your fantasy minded cock & bull!

Show us the training programs you know of first hand that does teach it's officers to 'shoot to wound'.

The way you're running off with the mouth, they must be a 'dime a dozen'!?

Please, direct us to the specific training policy, from anywhere in the world, that supports just that ---- Supports a 'Shoot to Wound' Training Policy.

We'd all be enjoying a good, legitimate read, rather that your usual bloviated fiction.

I'll even help you ........ Start here

RJ old man ,,,,,,, It's time ta shit, or get off the pot -- no more excuses!

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #177 – 2014-12-02, 23:13:20

Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-12-02, 11:23:16

Is that because there's a higher chance of the bullet passing clean through instead of shattering any bones/ribs or simply because heart and lung damage is much more fatal?

Heart and lung damage and the presence of major blood vessels.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #178 – 2014-12-02, 23:34:38

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-12-02, 16:33:28

His POV is formed by this, so he'll be very much pro-police in a case like this. Some guy who's been pushed around his whole life by the authorities might see things a little differently

What's happening is that we're getting entire communities that feel pushed around by police. The mistake is thinking that the riots in Ferguson where all about Micheal Brown. He was merely the match lit next to the stockpile of dynamite ready to explode as it was.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #179 – 2014-12-02, 23:51:52

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-02, 23:13:20

Heart and lung damage and the presence of major blood vessels.

Right. What I failed to mention is that I seem to recall hearing that the lung/blood vessel issue is exacerbated by the chance of bone splinters and such in case a rib or some such is hit. Sorry, my memory's a bit foggy on the subject matter.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #180 – 2014-12-03, 21:55:27

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-02, 21:05:57

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-12-03, 07:10:19
So in Smiley's mindset shooting to wound isn't on and what a diabolical argument corner that one is! As for his stance that "we respect our police" (totally seemingly) that is a case of anything in a uniform can do what he likes.

'Shooting to wound' is something you can only expect to see on your favorite 'cops & robbers' TV show, or in a movie direct from Hollywood.

Anyone actually knowledgeable on the subject, as attested to here , will most probably suggest that all the cheese has simply slid off yer cracker!

But hey, RJ .............. why don't you put your money where your mouth is??!!

I'm callin' you out here & now --- enough of your fantasy minded cock & bull!

Show us the training programs you know of first hand that does teach it's officers to 'shoot to wound'.

The way you're running off with the mouth, they must be a 'dime a dozen'!?

Please, direct us to the specific training policy, from anywhere in the world, that supports just that ---- Supports a 'Shoot to Wound' Training Policy.

We'd all be enjoying a good, legitimate read, rather that your usual bloviated fiction.

I'll even help you ........ Start here

RJ old man ,,,,,,, It's time ta shit, or get off the pot -- no more excuses!

Still looking RJ??

Yer BS come home like chickens ta the roost ole man?

Ya might find a place where they 'shoot to wound' here or here or most certainly here .......

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #181 – 2014-12-03, 22:36:36

I wonder how many in our small community have faced a situation where another human is intent on killing us. A situation faced by any policeman on any day, without warning.
For the record, it has happened to me only once in a lifetime, and I handled it badly.
I, too, would be astonished to hear of any training that advocates "shooting to wound".

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #182 – 2014-12-03, 23:30:32

I was in a situation once that involved violence and a cop. Before anything went down, the cop told me to leave, which I did quickly.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #183 – 2014-12-04, 03:29:23

I spent 8+ years in harms way in Vietnam.

There were over 10 times when we were hand to hand with the enemy, & being I'm here to tell you about it, it didn't go too well for those I (we) tangled with.

What I learned to do, what I was extensively trained to do, I became extremely good at.

After 3 years of Special Forces duty I went into specialized Sniper training.

I spent the next 5 years perfecting my craft, & the last 2 years of my Ranger life I spent as a specialist behind enemy lines eliminating any & all targets assigned to me.

To make a long story short, for all those years there always were people out there intent on killing me.

Fortunately, they never succeeded.

Words could never explain how that felt, & that's why I can empathize with those in Law Enforcement.

I know there are always a rotten apple here, & a few rotten apples there, but for the 99+% of them I've dealt with, they were some of the most honest, & genuine people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

Every single day they were willing to put their lives on the line, on the line for people they didn't even know.

Serve, protect, & defend.

That's their calling, & it takes a special kind of person to take up that line of commitment where the unspoken question is .....
will I see tomorrow?

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #184 – 2014-12-04, 04:31:13

Jimbro, there's always so much back-story… (Hey! tt92, you might get to meet Jaybro!)

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-03, 15:30:32

I was in a situation once that involved violence and a cop. Before anything went down, the cop told me to leave, which I did quickly.

This is a story that I probably should "write"… But what the hell.
First, let me mention that a friend asked me to help push a car down the street… The cops came and asked me, Was I trying to steal it! I told them (detectives in the local constabulary) that I wasn't. (I was under-age; and I wasn't… I didn't know. My "friends" were, too; but were…)

Perhaps a story might help explain what I mean?

Hippies were everywhere! Nobody yet knew what to make of them.
They seemed innocuous: They grew their hair long, didn't bathe, and wouldn't work; yet they wanted to be "seated at the table." Why?

I'd gone "home" and stayed too long (You know: Talking to family.): My curfew was 11pm. (I was "privileged," to be enrolled in the Harvard Upward Bound program…)
I met a fellow whom I'd (thought) I'd known for many years, and asked if I could "crash" at his place… (He almost married the O'-Irish-surname sister that had always enticed me! And she had -sometimes- talked to me: The last thing she'd said to me about him was a reference to the newly popular pop-top soda cans: "Little spout!"

At any rate, he said "Sure. Come home with me." I did.
(Not unusual, he had a twin bed. —There's a whole 'nother story, or two, connected to people I knew back then; and the bizarre ways they viewed the world.)

We got into his bed. I thought I'd go to sleep; but he said, "I like to play with balls… You'll let me?" He said he learned it in the Marine Corps… (The last guy who wanted to look at my weiner also claimed to be a Marine…) I said "No."
He hesitated and then said "I can make you!"
(He was right: He could!)
I mentioned that I'd heard his mother come in; how, I asked him, would he explain to her, a cry of rape! from her son's bedroom?

So, I went back out into the street.
When I got close to my dorm… I was chased by the police (plain-clothes) into a hotel (they said, "You'd better run…!" I did.)
There was a phalanx of Cambridge cops (reserve, and wanna-be…), eight across Brattle Street.
I got me to my safe haven; and slept.

What really happened?
I perused Harvard Square the next morning: Tear gas canisters, stuff burned; store windows broken, stuff stolen — mostly, people took stuff; broke doors and windows, and -whatever they wanted that they could reach- they took.
That's what usually happens, when there's a "riot".

What was that "Marine" thing?
I don't know. (And -truth be told- I don't want to.) Two Marines from my neighborhood were "not exactly 'poofs' — but liked…"
Well, they liked abusing others.

Is there a way of educating children, that convinces them that they needn't…?

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #185 – 2014-12-04, 07:38:13

I just got into an argument with a relative about the Staten Island "incident"… My "take" is simple (I think): Depraved indifference… Please high-light "depraved". The idea that an officer's aim to arrest an individual (for whatever reason) justifies lethal force is — well, depraved.
While I think there was no intent to kill the "suspect," there was a dis-connect between the officers' sworn duty and their actions: Howie's "police psychology" trope become reality…
You know what charges I'd have expected.

Instead, we got a worst-case swerve! (I'm using RJ's terminology…)

[Forget the movie… Read Elmore Leonard''s book Valdez Is Coming. To me, this is what American law enforcement is meant to be, at its best.
And we should guage all against "the best" — shouldn't we?]

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #186 – 2014-12-04, 08:31:45

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-04, 03:29:23

Serve, protect, & defend.

And strangle people to death.

Quote

A white New York City police officer accused of killing a black man with a chokehold avoided indictment, triggering new protests over police use of force a week after a Missouri grand jury cleared a white officer there in the shooting death of an unarmed black teen.

Grand jurors on New York’s Staten Island reached their decision today after months of testimony in the death of Eric Garner, Richmond County District Attorney Daniel M. Donovan Jr. said. Garner, 43, died July 17 after plain clothes officers led by Daniel Pantaleo sought to handcuff him, forcing him to the ground so they could arrest him for allegedly selling untaxed cigarettes.

The officer's supervisor was also present and is black, so it seems unlikely that there was a racial motive. Some would seek to proved that Garner was indeed selling untaxed cigarettes and was less than an angel himself, as is the usual pattern of some conservatives in trying to put the dead on trial after incidents like this. That's immaterial, because what Garner might have been doing didn't warrant a death sentence and very often the dead in cases like this didn't need to die, regardless of they actually committed the crime they're accused of or not.

One report after another of unarmed African-Americans dead at the hands of the police rightly or wrongly creates the impression that minorities are targeted for death more readily than whites. The fact Pantaleo's supervisor is also black doesn't change that another black man died for a trivial crime that would have only resulted in a short stay in the county lock-up (if not merely a fine.) The fact that the chokehold that resulted in Garner's death is prohibited by NYCPD regulations should have resulted in an indictment. The fact that it didn't causes people, especially minorities, to loss faith and trust in the criminal justice system.

Quote

If this prosecutor had wanted an indictment, he would have gotten one,” said Randolph M. McLaughlin, a civil rights attorney and professor at Pace Law School in White Plains, New York. “I believe it’s difficult for local prosecutors to prosecute the very police officers who they depend on to be witnesses in their own cases. One of the problems with the whole process is that the grand jury process is the only process in America where an elected official can do things in private and no one can see what he does.”

.....

Quote

“Like millions of New Yorkers, I am saddened by the grand jury’s decision not to indict in the Eric Garner case,” New York City Public Advocate Letitia James said in a statement. “Video footage of the incident clearly shows the banned chokehold that resulted in Mr. Garner’s death and the fact that there will be no public trial is shocking and unconscionable.”

Of course, there are those that defend Pantaleo.

Quote

Patrick J. Lynch, president of the city’s police union, said Pantaleo’s intention was to “do nothing more” than take Garner into custody and only used a “take-down technique” he learned in training.

It seems absurd that the police academy teaches techniques that banned because they kill suspects, especially those in as poor of physical condition as Garner was (obesity, high blood pressure, asthma, cardiovascular disease.) But assuming Lynch is correct, there seems to be a serious problem in officer training. Are officers being trained to use deadly force, or in the case of Garner, methods that are actually banned for good reason? If Lynch is correct in this, it's not actually the fault of individual officers such as Pantaleo. It's the system that's broken.

The article go through other incidents, such the death of a security guard that cops mistook for a drug dealer. Or even more brilliantly, shot a man 41 times for pulling out his wallet (most likely at the officers' request.)

I can't help but recall Smiley complaining of a man arrested for having a gun in seat when he was pulled over. Those that called "Second Amendment rights!" should have instead been thankful that suspect even survived the incident. The Las Vegas Review Journal and the local Fox station would have reported that he fired on the officer first, despite there being no evidence to that fact

The other stations and the Las Vegas Sun would reported the incident correctly and it would have been called "liberal bias."

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #187 – 2014-12-04, 09:10:52

How about -Sang- we recognize the real problem: Today's young cops think they're correctional officers, and that we're all of us inmates — subject to their control?

You always seem to go over-board… Now, I've just done so! But my diving off the boat seems, to me, more reasonable.
(At least, I think I know in which direction the shore is…

)
I'd agree that Garner (who, I'm given to understand, was actually known to one of the officers…which makes this case even more egregious!) was unnecessarily detained… (Had he been selling individual joints, he'd have been ticketed. No?) I can think of no reason why he'd have needed to be handcuffed.
A simple "Hey, Bigs! You're under arrest. Get in the back of the car" should have sufficed. And, if he ran: How far would he have got before he collapsed? (I don't mean to make light of the situation. But - seriously…) Some people don't -IMNTB-too-HO- understand what constitutes authority…

The "choke-hold" trope is a red herring, BTW.

I'll save you the trouble of re-reading (or remembering — since it was so long ago…): The real problem: Today's young cops think they're correctional officers, and that we're all of us inmates — subject to their control?

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #188 – 2014-12-04, 10:58:54

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-04, 20:31:45

And strangle people to death.

Ooooooppps. Mistakes suck, don't they... All that exerted energy, & the guy dies too..... Sometimes ya can't catch a break.
Next time I bet that Officer will go it a bit easier. Ya think he's sweatin' out a possible Fed Indictment too??

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #189 – 2014-12-04, 20:03:47

And the usual load of codswallop from our resident terrosist supprter! Small wonder he is happy to have trigger happy cops all over the place. America is supposed to be civilised and highly principled - well on paper but it is still a case of warped patriotism and lack of grey cells that smiles at all the police beatings and killings. And that big city of Chicago where police torturers got away with it for two decades and the chance of compensation more or less zilch Smile you epitomise those in the ex-colonies who rabbit about terrible countries with bad human rights, police brutality and so on but you practice the same damn thing yourself at home. If you are a policeman in America the equal chance of getting away with anything is high up the scale. That the image to the world of course does not effect your mindset because principle is just a word to be used to cower people or do them in. Even when there is a mass peaceful protest the batons are out right away keen to batter people. That the police are free to do what they like and you have to have soliders on the streets shows the deep flaw and two-faced society.

Trouble is as a society you have never grown up and moved on from the wild west days. Considering you tortured people in Iraq as the norm,regularly killed wedding receptions, your marines went on shooting sprees, I suppose it is only right that you shouldensure your uniformed also do it inside your country as well. Yeah that is balanced.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #190 – 2014-12-04, 22:50:17

Good cop, bad cop.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152685830168096]https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152685830168096]https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152685830168096

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #191 – 2014-12-04, 22:53:32

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-02, 21:05:57

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-12-03, 07:10:19
So in Smiley's mindset shooting to wound isn't on and what a diabolical argument corner that one is! As for his stance that "we respect our police" (totally seemingly) that is a case of anything in a uniform can do what he likes.

'Shooting to wound' is something you can only expect to see on your favorite 'cops & robbers' TV show, or in a movie direct from Hollywood.

Anyone actually knowledgeable on the subject, as attested to here , will most probably suggest that all the cheese has simply slid off yer cracker!

But hey, RJ .............. why don't you put your money where your mouth is??!!

I'm callin' you out here & now --- enough of your fantasy minded cock & bull!

Show us the training programs you know of first hand that does teach it's officers to 'shoot to wound'.

The way you're running off with the mouth, they must be a 'dime a dozen'!?

Please, direct us to the specific training policy, from anywhere in the world, that supports just that ---- Supports a 'Shoot to Wound' Training Policy.

We'd all be enjoying a good, legitimate read, rather that your usual bloviated fiction.

I'll even help you ........ Start here

RJ old man ,,,,,,, It's time ta shit, or get off the pot -- no more excuses!

Still avoiding the simple question RJ, or just typically gone coward ....... again ?

Your mouth write some checks your ass can't cash??

You're so quick lie without support, well this time you're stuck with this one like stink on shit.

So, direct us to a specific policy, from anywhere in the world, a policy that supports ---- Supports a 'Shoot to Wound' Policy.

Or will you be a man & admit you were spewing out yer tail, & simply can't. That would be acceptable too.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #192 – 2014-12-04, 23:58:47

RJ talks like a man who has never actually had to do it. ANYBODY can say "shoot to wound" from the safety of his armchair--- it's quite another thing to do this while in a fight.

Just sayin'.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #193 – 2014-12-05, 18:28:41

Well you live in a gun violent and mad country mjsmsprt40 and just like Smiley come out with codswallop instead of facing the truth. One can therefore take it that the police corruption in your city of Chicago is okay then?

There is a university man, Professor Peter Kraska (Eastern Kentucky University estimates that the most violent cops the SWAT were sent out 3,000 times in 1980 BUT are now used 50,000 times a year. Indeed these includes events that do not need them at all. The Professor calls it militarisation. In addition the general population of America once felt the police combatted crimes. I can accept jimbro's point about "good cops" because it would be ridiculous to ignore such but in cities everywhere there is a problem In leafy suburbs things are a bit calmer but does not allow the general pitucture to be grayed. However somewhere along the road the language changed and the thinking changed with it. Now they fight wars. There are wars on drugs, wars on crime, wars against bad guys BUT somewhere the interaction with the general citizenry was left behind.

There was a time we could look in on the States and laugh at people who barricaded themselves into some country house waiting for the police or Feds to come for them and do battle but who is laughing now? Smiley has no common sense and I fail to see how his whooping and hollering gung-ho type of Americanism is intelligent, coherent or sensible. Police gunning down people at the first resort as well as unarmed people is okay in his book which is beyond intellectual reason. As he also supports terrorists he does his country no good and makes it a laughing stock. Even allowing for the reasonable and honest cops over there the country nationally is seen by the world as a policed hell-hole and dangerous and the more it gets militarised the worst it will get. That a country can allow policemen to gun down unarmed people and so keen to kill them is as stupid as it comes. That cops more or less can do what they like and never get charged shows a deep flaw and one day you will live to regret it. For the many decent people it must be a concern whilst others have not noticed the vast change that has been running for years. Gradual police state status is creeping along nicely. I fear for the future with gun dangerous cops who are immune from law.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #194 – 2014-12-06, 09:32:24

I never thought I'd do it, but---

I join with Smiley in asking if you know of ANY course ANYWHERE where they teach "shoot to wound" to stop a miscreant from doing whatever it is you need him/her to stop doing.

Otherwise, without any evidence that such a course actually exists--- remember, we're talking here of a situation where guns have come out and are being used-- I have to suspect somebody is pulling "shoot to wound" out of a "Hopalong Cassidy" TV western.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #195 – 2014-12-06, 10:01:44

Several years back I had the opportunity to look in on a training session, people were training to be armed security guards and of course this meant time spent on the shooting range. You know, I didn't see one human-shaped target-- not even one-- that had the bullseye anywhere other than in the upper torso. No arm shots, no leg shots, not even a lower abdomen shot would have scored. Now, I saw plenty of human-shaped targets that day-- but not one that would have qualified as "shoot to wound".

I did a Google search on "shoot to wound" and the results are somewhat less than promising for the idea. Seems that if it comes to a shooting situation, might as well go all the way. Warning shots and brandishing the weapon as a threat is frowned upon as well. Seems the best idea is not to pull the weapon out at all, but if you do you mean business.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=shoot+to+wound

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #196 – 2014-12-06, 13:41:38

Shooting to kill seems to be the norm and not just in America - see here for example - Shoot-to-wound is impossible, says Britain's top cop Sir Ian Blair.

But there are cases when police don't do that - it depends on the individual I suppose. When Lee Rigby was assaulted an decapitated by a couple of fanatics in London, the police were charged by the perpetrators who (as the man stated afterwards) was indent on killing them if he could od dying a "Martyr's Death". He had a knife and the policeman who shot him nevertheless aimed to wound. The other person I think had a gun but he too was wounded. See here for more details --- Covered in blood and wielding a gun: Moment police shoot armed men 'after they murdered soldier Lee Rigby on streets of Woolwich.

I can appreciate the force of argument for having a "shoot to kill" option but there is still the context. In the UK if there is a shooting incident by the police there is an automatic independent review of the circumstances to see if the shooting was justified and some responsibility lies on the policeman who did the shooting to make his justification - I would assume this is still is also the case in the US although I'm not sure about the independent aspect.(?)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #197 – 2014-12-06, 14:30:18

Shooting to wound if the perp has a gun is foolhardy. If the perp has a knife and is 10 feet away or closer is foolhardy.

Ask yourself what you would do.

Not having a gun or knife on my person, I'd simply die.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #198 – 2014-12-06, 15:37:48

Quote from: string on 2014-12-06, 13:41:38

In the UK if there is a shooting incident by the police there is an automatic independent review of the circumstances to see if the shooting was justified and some responsibility lies on the policeman who did the shooting to make his justification - I would assume this is still is also the case in the US although I'm not sure about the independent aspect.(?)

.de is supposed to be like that. Except when the dead guy is an RAF-terrorist, then the investigation will be quietly swept under the rug.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #199 – 2014-12-06, 15:38:24

Police DO have tools at their disposal to wound, rather than kill. The baton and the tazer come to mind--- though there have been cases of people dying while being tazed, so this method of non-lethal subduing of a subject is not foolproof.

Sometimes it comes down to plain old judgement-call. An enraged perp is attacking you, may have already made an attempt to grab your gun--- what do you do? You have instants to make a decision.