Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

Utopians (Progressives) usually prate about 'effectiveness'… And how, if only they were in control, there would be enough! Eventually......

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-06-15, 06:33:24

It's not about control. It's about effectiveness.

Utopians (Progressives) usually prate about 'effectiveness'… And how, if only they were in control, there would be enough! Eventually.
Would you also support the Precautionary Principle?

...And what is the NRA utopia, their end game? Mine is to simply reduce criminals access to guns. Of course, it's impossible to completely eliminate it.  That's hardly a Utopian vision.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace – but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

And what is the NRA utopia, their end game? Mine is to simply reduce criminals access to guns. Of course, it's impossible to completely eliminate it.

Fleegler and researchers from Boston Children's Hospital, Harvard Medical School and Harvard School of Public Health studied information from all 50 states between 2007 to 2010, analyzing all firearm-related deaths reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and data on firearm laws compiled by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

States with the most laws had a mortality rate 42% lower than those states with the fewest laws, they found. The strong law states' firearm-related homicide rate was also 40% lower and their firearm-related suicide rate was 37% lower.

Despite the findings, researchers did not establish a cause and effect relationship between guns and deaths. Rather, they could only establish an association.

That failure illustrates the limits of the study, said Garen Wintemute, an emergency physician and director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis.

"Policy makers can really draw no conclusion from this study," Wintemute said, explaining that the study doesn't provide critical answers to which laws work and why.

The larger problem is that the United States effectively stopped doing research on gun laws and violence 15 years ago and now has no evidence that shows causes and effect, he said.

Wintemute added, however, that he believes gun policies are important and can drive rates of violence down. In the future, researchers must look at how several factors including culture, gun ownership, and gun trafficking between states, he said.

Fleegler and his colleagues became interested in the relationship between gun laws and deaths last summer after the Trayvon Martin case sparked conversations about self-defense laws and the use of guns.

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-06-15, 19:55:19

And what is the NRA utopia, their end game? Mine is to simply reduce criminals access to guns. Of course, it's impossible to completely eliminate it.

As far as I know, the NRA doesn't propose a Utopia or an end-game. They simply support an ancient right supposedly secured to a free people…

You want to feel safe and secure; and unencumbered by an oppressive government… Pard, you can't get there from here. Leastwise, not by that road: Government regulation doesn't go there.
If you really want to reduce criminals' access to guns, get a concealed-carry permit! Most criminals are cowards and, by your own reasoning, every little bit helps. No?
But you'd rather the coercive might of the federal government absolve you of personal responsibility. Even if it does little or no actual good. Even if it does actual harm.
If I'm wrong, please explain how.

Science, Sang? Nah. Of course not…

Despite the findings, researchers did not establish a cause and effect relationship between guns and deaths. Rather, they could only establish an association.

That failure illustrates the limits of the study, said Garen Wintemute, an emergency physician and director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis.

"Policy makers can really draw no conclusion from this study," Wintemute said, explaining that the study doesn't provide critical answers to which laws work and why.

The larger problem is that the United States effectively stopped doing research on gun laws and violence 15 years ago and now has no evidence that shows causes and effect, he said.

Wintemute added, however, that he believes gun policies are important and can drive rates of violence down. In the future, researchers must look at how several factors including culture, gun ownership, and gun trafficking between states, he said.

Fleegler and his colleagues became interested in the relationship between gun laws and deaths last summer after the Trayvon Martin case sparked conversations about self-defense laws and the use of guns.

Despite the early lapses in grammar early-on in the article, I feel the reporters' pain! Spinning this 'correctly' must have been anguishing, and futile…

No statistics for the last 15 years?! Maybe they're hiding among Lerner's 2009-2011 emails…

Science, Sang? Nah. Of course not…
Despite the findings, researchers did not establish a cause and effect relationship between guns and deaths. Rather, they could only establish an association.



Despite the early lapses in grammar early-on in the article, I feel the reporters' pain! Spinning this 'correctly' must have been anguishing, and futile…

No statistics for the last 15 years?! Maybe they're hiding among Lerner's 2009-2011 emails…

Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

What do you think?
i think if access to mentall health is easier than access to the gun shop .

it will reduce the Guns issues .


why?

bc people with mentall health issues need -->  CBT , Haldol , lithium , alprazolam , etc .

--not a Gun .

    

Why is it called "gun control"? Do you call the regulations concerning driver's licences "car control"?

Why is it called "gun control"? Do you call the regulations concerning driver's licences "car control"?

Smiley, I gotta say that if you're wanting to keep the state from knowing what you have or even if you have, here in Illinois you're a trifle late legally.

In any case, it really doesn't bother me to have my paperwork in order, so that I can answer legally and constitutionally for any and all weapons I might possess. I have to have a driver's license, registration and proof of insurance to drive a car-- why should I not have legal paperwork to possess and use an arsenal?

Why Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms it's a matter of resistance.
As so, it's irrelevant what happens at already occupied societies where the only right people have is to conform, consume, obey.

American gun defensors, Europeans like it or not, are the last ones to keep on defending their right to resistance and actually doing something for it.
Criminal statistic minutiae is the weapon being used against populations so people don't get armed, so people can't ever resist.

This is not a matter of police and statistics, this is a mater of Freedom.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-06-16, 20:03:53

Why is it called "gun control"? Do you call the regulations concerning driver's licences "car control"?

That's what both sides of the political spectrum have decided to label it, so until further notice that's what it's called.

Oppression & Tyranny by any other names would dominate & subjugate just the same!

Same old song and dance: Gun control works! (Except where it's tried — because they don't try hard enough…? DC? Chicago?) The available statistics (…the last 15 years, eh?) are murky, at best.
Cherry-picking data and performing feats of academic prestidigitation don't count for much.

Between 2007 and 2010, firearms were responsible for 31,224 to 31, 672 fatalities a year, with an average annual death rate ranging from a high of 17.9 per 100,000 individuals in Louisiana to a low of 2.9 per 100,000 in Hawaii. In 2010, firearms killed 68 percent of the homicide victims and 51 percent of the suicide victims.

“We found that the states with the greatest number of laws not only had dramatically lower firearm-associated homicide rates, but dramatically lower firearm-associated suicide rates as well,” says Fleegler.

Findings from the study include:

States with the most firearm legislation had a 42 percent lower overall firearm-associated mortality rate than states with the least legislation.

The firearm-associated homicide rate was 40 percent lower, and the firearm-related suicide rate 37 percent lower, in states with the most legislation.

There was no increase in non-firearm-associated fatalities in states with the most firearm legislation as compared to states with the least legislation.

The types of legislation associated most clearly with decreasing rates of firearm-related homicides and suicides involved universal background checks and requiring permits to purchase firearms.

States with the most firearm laws had the lowest levels of household gun ownership.

Fleegler notes that the study did not determine cause and effect, but instead established the association between firearm laws and firearm fatalities.

..........in addition the percentage of households owning guns actually decreased........