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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 232760 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #625 –
"Advantage: Putin" hardly. He is weakened. Most analysts tend to agree on "Advantage: Xi".

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #626 –

:devil: Xi whiz, do you really think so? :devil:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #627 –
Nah, too glib of you by far, jax. It is the media and politicians speak that brains you into such. With Russia and China becoming closer things will carry on. We in the West whether the EEC or the USA are deep in money pits and hardly on a good moral standing. The sheer hypocrisy over Ukraine is breath taking. In Kiev a crowd took over buildings and dozens were killed and injured. The West thought that brilliant. Now the Ukrainians in the southeast take over buildings and they are automaticall wrong? They were never included in the take over and want nothing to do with the amateurs who are running things in the country. We try to find every little thing to snipe at one half of Ukraine which did not take part in the illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. Some of the stuff comig out of Kiev and the West is so infantile and bias and the media is as bad.

As it happens some two thirds of those protesting in the east of the country want to remain part of the nation but with wider local autonomy and why not? That is the part of the country that dishes out money to Kiev and gets little back. The weird crowd in the Ukrainian government cannot give orders to the army because the army has whole sections that will not take part if attacking fellow citizens. One group actually defected. Because of the great number of Russian speakers in Ukraine our propaganda batters it out that Russia is stirring it up. Kind of odd baloney that as they wanted the democratically elected government to continue and they are the bad guys.

That country is none of the business of the EEC, USA or NATO. They should sod off and supporting that illegal bunch ifn Kiev is a disgrace.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #628 –
Quote from: jax on

"Advantage: Putin" hardly. He is weakened. Most analysts tend to agree on "Advantage: Xi".

Indeed, the great winner seems to be Xi, just by doing nothing except for smiling politely.
- Putin's approval at home is larger than ever. However, economic sanctions and isolation from Europe will have a negative impact on Russia.
Russia will have to look eastwards. Xi is waiting with a bright grin on his face. A close partner with plenty of oil and gas. On top of that, the prospect for some sophisticated (military) technology, China was denied to acquire from the West.
- From the very beginning, the USA had nothing to lose. If it succeeds to torpedo European economic relations with Russia and succeeds to bind its European allies tighter at the transatlantic leash, then it was a successfull operation. Things look promising so far for the USA.
- Europe can only lose. Torpedoed relations with Russia will backslash and hit Europe as well. Germany for instance might revise its economic growth for 2014 from 1,9% to 1% and its exports growth from 7,2% to 3,6%, due to the Ukrainian crisis. However not all European countries will be affected alike. I assume that Liechtenstein will be less affected than Germany.
- Absolute losers are the Ukrainians. A bankrupt country on the verge of a civil war...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #630 –
Breaking News!

Pro-Russian militias infiltrated by US spies!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #631 –
    


               

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #633 –
Quote from: krake on
Russia will have to look eastwards. Xi is waiting with a bright grin on his face. A close partner with plenty of oil and gas. On top of that, the prospect for some sophisticated (military) technology, China was denied to acquire from the West.
- From the very beginning, the USA had nothing to lose. If it succeeds to torpedo European economic relations with Russia and succeeds to bind its European allies tighter at the transatlantic leash, then it was a successfull operation. Things look promising so far for the USA.

That first point directly contradicts the second, doesn't it?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #634 –
Not necessarily.
Isolating Russia from Europe seems to have priority. Besides, the upcoming new iron curtain the US is pushing for, should be moved eastwards as much as possible.
Zbigniew Brzezinski gave less importance to China on his strategic chessboard. Things have changed a little since. A revived Sino-Russian alliance won't please the USA for sure but there is little they can do about it. Eroding 'influence' over Europe was a much bigger concern.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #635 –
The US, the EU, Russia, and China are in a state of active coopetition, they have more interests in common than opposing interests, but they have plenty of both.

The US and China have been coopetive allies against Soviet Union during almost the whole existence of the Soviet Union, however this does not extend to Russia. Basically it will be in the US strategic interest to have Russia tying the knot with EU. 

It is the Anti-Americans' wet dream to have an alliance against the US. It is not likely to happen. A warmer relation between Russia and China is well possible, and would make some sense, but is tricky.

Chinese foreign policy so far has not been very adventurous and not very flexible. China has a number of foreign policy goals they act within. For more unexpected events, like in Ukraine, they waffle. They have interests in Ukraine and in Russia, and they wouldn't want the interests in one damage the other.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #636 –
US meddling in the area will only make us look like bigger fools than we are...at least some of us.

Obama's red lines are getting more and more annoying.

Does anybody here really care which way Ukraine goes? Count me in the "I Don't Care" camp.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #637 –
Sure I do. Ukraine may not matter much to the US, but it matters a lot to the EU and to Russia, as well as to the Ukrainians.

Furthermore I live in Sweden, Kiev is closer to Stockholm than Brussels is (by about 10 miles). Besides the Swedish foreign minister has been itching for a fight with Russia for 20 years or so, and Sweden and Poland are the two countries most active in integrating Ukraine with the EU.

Like most Europeans I have never been to the Ukraine (too much visa hassle at the time, and I have actively avoided Kiev as a transfer airport, the airlines and airport is considered about the worst in Europe), though I have been within a few miles of the border, and of course (like most Europeans?) I have met a good number of Ukrainians.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #639 –
Quote from: jax on

I have actively avoided Kiev as a transfer airport, the airlines and airport is considered about the worst in Europe

I have been on a transfer flight in Kiev airport less than a year ago. Indeed the worst one among those I have visited. Then again, I have not visited too many airports.

I have not been to most of the 25 cities to see before I die. I don't care. I'll die anyway.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #640 –
Quote from: jax on

Sure I do. Ukraine may not matter much to the US, but it matters a lot to the EU and to Russia, as well as to the Ukrainians.

Furthermore I live in Sweden, Kiev is closer to Stockholm than Brussels is (by about 10 miles). Besides the Swedish foreign minister] has been itching for a fight with Russia for 20 years or so, and Sweden and Poland are the two countries most active in integrating Ukraine with the EU.

I wouldn't say that the US doesn't care about Ukraine, which is a very vague concept. Its more a personal matter to me, and I'd guess to most ordinary people, but I really don't even know about that. I'd be interested in knowing where most people here would place Ukraine on a map of the world. Understandably, that wouldn't be the case in Europe.

Take a quick look at this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/ukraine-poll_n_4891224.html
When you say that Carl Bildt is itching for a fight with Russia, what do you mean? Certainly not one that involves weapons. Please clarify that.

Broadly speaking, this issue is too complicated for me given my limited understanding of the complexity of the region. As an example, I know as much about South Ossetia as I know about dark energy. However, given Putin's recent declarations about Russian speaking people in the regions outside of Russia, I guess that South Ossetia might become a part of this entanglement.

Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laugher.
==================================
On an unrelated matter, but one that speaks to how ordinary people assimilate information about the universe, there's this gem which is related to the way that religious beliefs color other understandings.
Quote
A majority of Americans don't believe in the prevailing theory in physics about the origins of our universe: that it began 13.8 billion years ago with a massive explosion called the Big Bang.

Fifty-one percent of those surveyed said they were "not too confident or not at all confident" in the Big Bang Theory, according to a new AP/GFK poll . Those surveyed were least confident in the Big Bang Theory than in any of the other statements they were asked about that scientists would consider factual.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #641 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
When you say that Carl Bildt is itching for a fight with Russia, what do you mean? Certainly not one that involves weapons. Please clarify that.

Broadly speaking, this issue is too complicated for me given my limited understanding of the complexity of the region. As an example, I know as much about South Ossetia as I know about dark energy. However, given Putin's recent declarations about Russian speaking people in the regions outside of Russia, I guess that South Ossetia might become a part of this entanglement.

Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laughter.
No, I don't think anyone is gunning for another Russian-Swedish war (and then again, Rus is thought to originally refer to Swedes).

The European views on Ukraine range from Ersi to Krake, with Sweden on the hawkish side. Fellow Scandinavians Denmark and Norway on the contrary are on the doveish side. They have made a point not to stand by Sweden in Scandinavian solidarity for that reason. That is a little intriguing in that not only are Denmark and Norway the most enthusiastic members of the NATO alliance, the current Secretary General of NATO is a Dane, and is about to be replaced by a Norwegian. He used to be the Prime Minister of Norway until an adverse electoral outcome a few months ago, long before that he campaigned to have Norway leave NATO.

NATOs next Secretary General Stoltenberg is responsible person - President Putin

Anyway, as a rule the closer the country is to Ukraine (and thus also the former Soviet Union when it existed) the more more interested it is to have Ukraine integrated with EUrope. Germany may be an exception.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #642 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

I wouldn't say that the US doesn't care about Ukraine, which is a very vague concept.

For sure it does. You don't invest 5 billions for a regime change in a country that doesn't matter to you.
Most people in the USA might have problems with placing the Ukraine on a map but those people neither define the interests of the USA nor do they define geostrategic priorities. All what most people know about the Ukraine (not only in the USA) is what they read about it in their media. Very few people will take the time to consult alternative sources as well.
Let's take the Iraq war as an example. Most Americans were for it. I can't really blame them for that. Their only source of information about Iraq was from their massmedia which they took as the only possible truth. If someone would teach your grandchildren that the globe is flat then they would grow up with that believe.
Göbbels was a master of propaganda. Imagine one like him with the potentialities of todays massmedia.

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laugher.

I would advise him to send 60,000 instead of 600 :)  Wonder if it would make any difference (except Poland would have to feed them by out-of-pocket payment).
The USA also announced that it will help the Ukrainian government with 50,000,000 USD. In comparison, those 600 troops are a vast army :D

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #643 –
Quote from: jax on

Anyway, as a rule the closer the country is to Ukraine (and thus also the former Soviet Union when it existed) the more more interested it is to have Ukraine integrated with EUrope. Germany may be an exception.

It depends on what you mean by "Ukraine integrated with EUrope".
From an US perspective it means Nato land graced with some US military bases.
As I mentioned before, our main interest is stability in Europe and good partnership/economic relations with all neighbors.
A new iron curtain won't serve Europe's interests!

BTW, aside of what the USA, Sweden, Poland, Denmark, Norway or Germany wants - does anybody give a shit about what Ukrainians want?
They could have had the best of both sides. A trade union with the EU and at the same time one with Russia.
Instead the Ukraine was ripped by foreign interests and is now on the verge of a civil war.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #644 –
Excercises are going on all the time. With great timing there was a NATO exercise with 16,000 people not that far from Russia about the same time as Crimea changed hands. These things are pre-planned for a long time, and Russia would have been there as observers had they not been expelled for un-NATO-like behaviour in the Ukraine.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uqXo6ul03Q[/video]

As officer guy said on the above video "[Afghanistan] has been important for the Alliance for more than 10 years now, but it is coming to an end and NATO has challenges in the near area."

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #645 –
Quote from: jax on
As officer guy said on the above video "[Afghanistan] has been important for the Alliance for more than 10 years now, but it is coming to an end and NATO has challenges in the near area."
Not exactly that (in the "omission").
It is "[focusing on Afghanistan] has been important" what he said, because "which" (among others) can "placehold" not only for a noun-word or noun phrase, but also for an entire preceding clause's "summary" meaning.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #646 –
Yet one more Grammar Nazi, this time from Russia.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #647 –
Carl Bildt is not really itching for a war. If a war broke out, he would be the first to run and hide. It's just that he has industrial interests behind his back. He calculates his statements and activities so as to generate turnover for Saab http://www.saabgroup.com/

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #648 –
Mr. Bildt would be a Republican darling in the U.S.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #649 –
And he didn't understand a couple things. The major problem with Jax's sentence isn't what Josh thought it was. If one wants to be a true grammar Nazi, one would point out that the sentence is a little ambiguous in its meaning. I'll let Josh figure out why as a pop quiz. The casual forum reader can comprehend it fine, but for more formal writing, the meaning needs to be more precise. But who rights perfectly all forums all the time anyway ;) Now somebody can try to grammar nazi over starting a sentence with a conjunction. The second thing the grammar nazi doesn't understand is the more one begins to understand English grammar, the more one understands that it's fairly loose and changeable - which explains why it's technically now correct grammar to start a sentence with a a conjunction. Many grammar rules taught in elementary schools and English a Second Language students are more style guides than rules.