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Topic: Democracy in America… (Read 71420 times)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #175
So right you are RJ....America is not a Democracy (we do have a democrat Party, but that has nothing to with Democracy).

We have a Constitutional Republic, which utilizes a special form or aspect of Democratic Principals .... 

You may have heard it said by us on many occasion "..Our form of Democracy.." .... which as you must know by now was purposefully designed from it's beginnings to be quite distinct to the form of Democracy you personally wish for the world.

The far overwhelming majority of Americans (95%+ wouldn't be an exaggeration) are quite happy with acknowledging our differences, & care not to change in order to conform with you, or anyone else for that matter.

Much to your chagrin, we Americans love our Constitution --- accept it's limitations & flaws, along with it's magnificence & uniqueness --- & we would gladly lay down our lives in it's defense, rather than submit to any inferior alternative.

Some may differ from this view, but that is the beauty of it's significance, we can freely debate the issues of OUR Constitution --- as we robustly do, day in & day out --- all the while all sides accept it's position in our lives while doing so.

So gristle in your own fat because you'll never be able to change us. Don't feel sorry for us, for we hold your ill begotten concerns with contempt, because we wouldn't have it any other way.

Us Americans want what we have, aspire to accumulate more, & will never ever give in for any less.

So, in that, may I respectfully say to you my dear fellow, take your democracy &, delicately but firmly, kindly shove it up your ass as deeply as your arm can push.

 

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #176
There's no more democracy in America, the cassete was changed.

Isn't there? On Tuesday, in Nevada we not only vote on candidates but on Prop 3, a 2% tax on business profits above 1,000,000. Seems like a bad idea, but the fact that we can vote on our taxes starts to smack of direct democracy at least on the state level.

What I don't understand about the candidates for the various offices is the mudslinging. It's been going on forever, but it really makes little sense. Think of it this way, Ford doesn't try to sell its cars by badmouthing Chevy. Instead, they play up the strengths of their product. Likewise, two candidates badmouthing shredding each other leaves no reason to want to vote for either one. Take the Attorney General race. One is supposedly so unqualified that the law office he used to work for almost terminated him for incompetence at his performance review and on that review said he lacks basic knowledge of the law. The other is supposedly corrupt. So who to pick? No wonder voter turnout is so low. In 2016, we get to vote for a new president. With that office, I think it's true that nobody that should be president even wants the job.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #177
Would you -for crying out loud- answer a simple question, Sang? Did you actually mean it, when you said "a democracy and a republic aren't mutually exclusive"? (Oh. I see. You've used the Way Back Machine to answer… How very Orwellian of you, and typical. :) You're a n't, aren't you? :) ) Go ahead and report this post, too: You're Nevada's equivalent of Scotland's Howie… His ham-fisted typing is akin to your thick-headed biased thought patterns. But he's more honest. And he actually manages to say what he means more so than you…
:) :) :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #178
Why in the name of (insert deity) would I answer answer a question that just a snide comment about a typo, as if your grammar and typing are perfect? Let me know when you have something to contribute.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #179
One is supposedly so unqualified that the law office he used to work for almost terminated him for incompetence at his performance review and on that review said he lacks basic knowledge of the law. The other is supposedly corrupt. So who to pick
I left off you trailing question mark, because it really wasn't intended: You are not telling us something about your thought-process, Sang
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #180
I told you to let me know when you have something to contribute, which you clearly don't. Shoo, fly.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #181
Why in the name of (insert deity) would I answer answer a question that just a snide comment about a typo, as if your grammar and typing are perfect? Let me know when you have something to contribute.

Dude (or dudette, as the case may be…), leaving out a "not" is hardly inconsequential — in polite society; but you insist on being rude.
You'd "answer answer" a simple question, because you're a person. You'd not, because your an agenda an orifice and fasciae. And you can't seem to get beyond that.

[Your most recent post is evidence…}
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #182
I'm going to play OakdaleFTL for second.
You are not telling us something about your thought-process, Sang
Did you mean "thought process" , Oak ?

See how petty and stupid this, Oakdale? Next time maybe I'll read a bunch of leftist crapola and invent your meanings for you, instead of reading what you wrote. After that, I'll accuse you of being dishonest when it becomes blindingly obvious that your ideas don't match my preconceived notions.

You damn well know it wasn't a real question, but you being snide yet again. In polite society, one doesn't feel the need to point out all of another person's mistakes. Indeed, doing so is a sign of one's own insecurity, pettiness or some poisonous combination of both.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #183
Is this thread about democracy in America or about spelling and grammar?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #184
I wasn't quite sure where Sang was going when he said "a democracy and a republic are mutually exclusive"… (He felt obliged to call such -or its contrary!- "right-wing gibberish"!) So, I asked him if he'd perhaps left out a word.
It seems he did.

I'd intended this thread to be about the recurrent clash between the 1st Amendment right to free speech and "campaign finance reform" — and the contorted reasoning that finds the Citizens United decision an assault on democracy (!).
Perhaps when Sang gets over his hissy-fit he'll return to the topic…


In the meantime, there's an op-ed in the New York Times that proposes another constitutional amendment to alleviate…the horrible impediments to effective administration  that our midterms ensure! (See it here.)
In essence, the authors (without saying so directly…) think we should adopt a parliamentary system, because governing is too hard under our out-dated constitutional constraints!

No doubt, the quadrennial call to scrap the electoral college will begin on Wednesday…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #185
Until then you'll question his grammar?  :lol:

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #186
I'd question his grampa too, if I thought I'd get a straight answer thereby… :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #187
Define straight!

Tee-hee. :cheers:

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #188
Define straight!

Gladly: Un-bent!
How he manages to bear the weight of so many misconceptions is miraculous; but it hobbles his steps to a shuffling gait and focusses his gaze on his feet… (I'd bet he'd chortle approvingly at this latest tidbit! Would you take that bet? :) )
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #189
[glow=green,2,300]GOTCHA!![/glow]

[glow=black,2,300]OakdaleFTL[/glow][glow=black,2,300]OakdaleFTL[/glow]















Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #190
It seems he did.

I'd intended this thread to be about the recurrent clash between the 1st Amendment right to free speech and "campaign finance reform" — and the contorted reasoning that finds the Citizens United decision an assault on democracy (!).
Perhaps when Sang gets over his hissy-fit he'll return to the topic…

So what? My thoughts got a little ahead of my fingers. It would seem your fallback for lacking of a constructive argument against me is to play grammar nazi. You do this so often there was little reason for me to believe it was a legitimate question and more of a cheap shot.

Now onto free speech. Writing your official requesting a certain action is free speech, as it composing a blog post or newspaper article. There are many other actions that constitute free speech and freedom of the press. Writing a check is not among them. This isn't to say XYZ Corp shouldn't be allowed to donate to a campaign, nor that a billionaire should be denied either. It simply means there should be limits so the voice of the people the politicians are supposed to represent doesn't get drowned how by the sound of Representative Hogg's bank account being filled. Failing that, perhaps there should be limits on how much can be spent, including the spending done by 527 groups.

This really should not be partisan. Historically, Democrats outraised and outspent their Republican rivals (as well as the other way around to avoid confusion) and therefore won the election But it seems to be conservative Republicans that are against campaign reform. That must be so the Kochs can buy another astroturf Tea Party candidate, although in theory Bill Gates or George Soros can buy  just as many astroturf Democratic candidates. Between the Liberal and Conservative billionaires and the SuperPACs, when do the members of congress address the concerns of the living, physical people?

Now if the United States is a Democracy or Republic is a matter of semantics. The characteristics of a democracy are now present in the US: equality under the law, the right to petition elected officials, human rights and due process of the law, etc. You can also call it a republic on the basis of representative government. That said, a republic doesn't necessarily guarantee the above liberties. In some cases it means you get to vote for a member of the parliamentary body as long as he (a republic can still outlaw a she) belongs to the only legal political party - on that chokes the country in its iron grip. But the US is not that type of republic and can just as easily and correctly be called a democracy. In the beginning, it was strictly a republic with slaves, free blacks not having the vote, women not having the vote, not equal protection under the law for free African Americans. In the past couple centuries democracy has grown and still continues to do so. This notion that corporations are people is not popular will not stand and the precedent of Citizens United eventually will be overturned. Yes, Oakdale it can be, although it will again take the SCOTUS to do it.

Now what's Oakdale's answer? That somehow I'm not being honest? That I made typos? Those are the answers of someone that has no answers.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #191
If there were typos above, I missed them… :) It was a pleasure to read a post by you that you yourself read, first! (There! I've satisfied my cheap shot quota.)
There are many other actions that constitute free speech and freedom of the press. Writing a check is not among them.
Why not?
Are bumper stickers and front yard signs okay? Billboards? How about newspaper ads and circulars? Radio and TV spots?
Donating money to campaigns, parties and "issues" organizations is still considered political speech, and thus a 1st Amendment exercise. Your main reason for opposing such appears to be the "drowning out" of the Voice of the People…
There are two presumptions I'd argue with there: First, that the People (and their various groupings) are disadvantaged unfairly. Their interests and means (investments in time, effort and -yes- money) far outweigh the resources of those you rail against; or they would…
Second, the Wisdom of the People has always been doubted, and for good reason. (Franklin's reply to the question What form of government the 1787 Convention had given the country was "A Republic, if you can keep it!" He wasn't overly optimistic.) Would you accept plebiscitary democracy, as a replacement for our cumbersome system? :)
There's another "problem" that hides in plain sight: Rational political ignorance… Don't you think this was exacerbated by (1) the popular election of senators and (2) the artificial limitation upon the number of representatives in the House? The larger the constituency, the more diffuse its attention and efficacy, no? :) Among other things, such allows elected officials to operate at a great remove from those they "represent"…
You ask "when do the members of congress address the concerns of the living, physical people?" When such people can effectively hold them accountable, I'd say. It is all-but a paradox that the more democracy we get the less our interests are served… Hot-button issues (and their propagandists) easily capture an election cycle when government grows beyond the grasp of your Common Man, Sang.

You'd demonize the Kochs… For what, exactly? Your go-to term for groups you don't like is astro-turf, but you would do better to consider weeds! (Feel free to play with it…) I specially like the -to you?- innocuous insertion of "in theory" when you mention Soros and the influence of his money!
The characteristics of a democracy are now present in the US: equality under the law, the right to petition elected officials, human rights and due process of the law, etc. You can also call it a republic on the basis of representative government. That said, a republic doesn't necessarily guarantee the above liberties.
It does seem (a derogatory) semantic issue, for you: What examples of those characteristics of democracy you listed does history provide?
This notion that corporations are people is not popular [; hence, it] will not stand and the precedent of Citizens United eventually will be overturned. Yes, Oakdale it can be, although it will again take the SCOTUS to do it.
Why must it take a SCOTUS to overturn it? Because the constitution's amendment process is too hard, compared to packing the Supreme Court? :)

Don't forget to vote! (I'm off to cast my ballot now.)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #192
In an opinion piece (here) an analysis of our current situation goes:
Quote
[L]iberals [who] treat their positions as if they were free of ideology, [...] can't comprehend why politicians we send to Washington are always uninterested in solving the problems—or, more specifically, the issues he’s identified as critical to our future. After an era of extraordinary action [...] we’re now entering an era of extraordinary inaction.

First of all, two forces slamming into each other is not inaction. But what if people aren’t interested in being governed in such dramatic ways any longer? Maybe Americans are increasingly uncomfortable with the notion of politicians planning so much of their future. Or, at the very least, more voters might have come to the realization that politicians aren’t up to the task. Maybe Obamacare killed for decades the idea of big centralized governance? I find the prospect heartening. A real breakthrough. A plan. Left punditry, though, frames this kind of healthy American skepticism about state power as “cynicism.” And if people lose faith in the decency of hyperactive government, the nation is plunged into “malaise.”
I hope the author, David Harsanyi, is correct... And, of course, if he is then the Tea Parties have had a lasting and salubrious effect!

You, Sang, disagree?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #193
Why not?
Are bumper stickers and front yard signs okay? Billboards? How about newspaper ads and circulars? Radio and TV spots?

Yes, because those don't amount to paying a politician on the promise of a certain actions or votes on votes on particular issue.
Would you accept plebiscitary democracy, as a replacement for our cumbersome system?  :)

We have it now, at the state level as you know. The assumption seems to be that if 51% of the people agree on a certain issue, they can run amok with all sorts of nonsense, even dangerous, unconstitutional nonsense.  This is way I keep bringing up same-sex marriage as an obvious. There's the democracy to allow people to vote, but that vote won't survive if it's in violation of established rule of law via the constitution. Likewise 51 percent of Californians might vote for severe limitations on the right to bear arms and that vote will be tossed out as violation of the Second Amendment Rights. On the national level, 51% can be misinformed, outright lied to by their news channels and bloggers, or even completely uninformed into making objectively bad choices at the ballot. But why trust the legislators any more? They had millions of dollars "donated" to them on the understanding they would act in accordance to the benefactors wishes. Even uncorrupted, they'll just tend to vote the party line and don't have any more understanding of economics or foreign affairs, etc than we do. 
What examples of those characteristics of democracy you listed does history provide?

Those seem so self-evident that I don't understand why you're asking.
Hot-button issues (and their propagandists) easily capture an election cycle when government grows beyond the grasp of your Common Man, Sang.

Really? And I so haven't spent election cycles fighting against a hot button issue... [/end sarcasm] Democracy doesn't necessarily mean doing away with legislative bodies and that all aspects of governance are put on the ballot. It occurs to me that people on the Right don't even know what a democracy is, or a least the difference forums of democracy.
Why must it take a SCOTUS to overturn it? Because the constitution's amendment process is too hard, compared to packing the Supreme Court?

The strange thing is packing the Supreme Court isn't reliable and the justices often have found against the party that put them there. Witness Roberts and the ACA, just for a recent example. But what I was thinking of was the Binding Precedent. Constitutional Amendments should be few and far between. The issue of the day should not wind up in the constitution.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #194
Yes, because those don't amount to paying a politician on the promise of a certain actions or votes on votes on particular issue.
Dude! That's called bribery, and is illegal in all 57 states — excepting Illinois…
Oh, wait: You said "amounts to" — which means only your motives are pure; everyone else's are -at least- suspect!
We have it now, at the state level as you know [referring to some states' initiative process, when I asked about "government by plebiscite"…].
So: You couldn't "Just Say No"? :) The SSM issue (like abortion, still! And -as you'd have it- the important question of "corporate personhood") are issues that should be decided by The People™, as in Not The Politicians or The Judges!
By that I mean, politics.
We'd both prefer that the Bill of Rights trump any temporary majority opinion to the contrary, wouldn't we? :)

Those seem so self-evident that I don't understand why you're asking.
You know… Actual historical examples of democracies maintaining such, even for a generation!

But why trust the legislators any more? They had millions of dollars "donated" to them on the understanding they would act in accordance to the benefactors wishes. Even uncorrupted, they'll just tend to vote the party line and don't have any more understanding of economics or foreign affairs, etc than we do.
Speak for yourself! And I'll speak for myself! But I don't buy into your "they just vote the party line" and they "don't have any more understanding" BS contention. (Are you talking about Democrats, Libertarians, and RINOs? :) ) As previously noted, your "understanding" and mine differ markedly! Why do you think that is?
I'd trust your views on foreign affairs and matters economical as much as mjm's (and less than Jaybro's…); well, less, really: He (mjm) has fewer pre-existing conditions… :)
You seem to think politicians can author campaign finance reform in such wise as to obviate pre-existing conditions… I'd maintain that only a concerted diminution of the sphere and power of government might accomplish this! (The standard Tea Party line… :) ) Call it a form of insurance the Founders bought us.

Constitutional Amendments should be few and far between. The issue of the day should not wind up in the constitution.
We can certainly agree on that (with some egregious exceptions…)!
The "Binding Precedent" is a fiction, more so in your camp, Sang… But as much in the breach.
What are ya gonna do? Eh? :)

Will you be saddened, if Harry Reid is demoted?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #195
[glow=green,2,300]American Democracy has Spoken[/glow]

[glow=blue,2,300]Republicans in control of: [/glow]

[glow=black,2,300]The U.S. Senate[/glow]
[glow=black,2,300]
The U.S. House
[/glow]

[glow=black,2,300]U.S. State Governorships[/glow]





[glow=red,2,300]Obama, is oh, so, so Lame[/glow]



Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #196
Call it a form of insurance the Founders bought us.

I'm surprised some Catholic American Bishop hadn't proposed yet to Sanctify the Founders... each time I read about them there's another miracle.  :angel:
A matter of attitude.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #197
Disestablishment at the federal level was written into our constitution, sir! :) But most of his contemporaries and many, still, consider Washington almost a saint… When you consider what that few generations (say, from James Otis and Sam Adams to James Monroe and John Quincy Adams) accomplished, the appellation of "miraculous" doesn't seem so far fetched; specially when you see the retrenchment that grows more poignant each election cycle….
(Your country has had bold and persistent leadership too. Or have you forgotten Salazar already?)

Our history is much shorter than yours; so, we choose our folk heroes from those we can almost remember! (Your governments are so fleeting -as in most of Europe- that you have to either be-knight even recent tyrants or bemoan the frailties of Man.
You're welcome to your King — and a fine and upstanding fellow he seemed! Is he still in "power"? You see -of course- that it doesn't matter to us, except aesthetically? Portugal doesn't much matter, on the world stage…

I anticipate the time when America doesn't much matter to anyone else.* (A third of a continent ought to be enough for anybody, no? :) ) I hate to admit it, but Rodney King asked a pertinent question: Can't we all just get along?
Well, we're closer now to being able to than -I think- ever before…

(There are, of course, recalcitrants of various sorts… :) Would you like me to name names?)
———————————————————————————
* What happens if fusion becomes a commonplace source of electricity?
Sure, the U.S. is likely to pioneer it… But that won't matter: It will change the world! And -silly me!- I think, for the better.
There's no way to bottle-neck such technology, and I wouldn't want there to be. Everyone will adjust just fine to almost free energy, once it becomes available…

For some reason that I've never been able to understand, some folk insist that "everything's already been invented" and "there's nothing new, under the Sun!"

Quote
Of course, I cough! I've been smoking for fifty years!
The silliest and nonsensical
tropes are put forward by the most staid
and conservative of people! They fade
into the background, when they are called dull…

Are words best used as weapons or as tools?
(You likely know my preference and my bent;
I'd create and rejoice in the advent
of such a confabulation of fools!)

While it's true, that I don't ask others to
agree with me too much, I don't ask them
to oppose me unreasonably… A-hem!
(What wondrous fiction, I could write! And you

too could — if only there were no human
nature!) What does the Latin mean? Summin?



(I'm sorry but I find that funny; and I'm sorry if you don't! :) ) [source, for some of my silliness…]

I hear words differently than most. I'm often wrong. But I amuse myself (and, perhaps, others…) You seem to prefer that a lost world be reclaimed; while others insist that a never before world exists, if only some "magical" formula is pronounced by enough of The People!
I'm happy enough with the people I meet. They're not so bad…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #198
We'd both prefer that the Bill of Rights trump any temporary majority opinion to the contrary, wouldn't we?

Well certainly
But I don't buy into your "they just vote the party line" and they "don't have any more understanding" BS contention. (Are you talking about Democrats, Libertarians, and RINOs?

All of the above and add archconservatives. I've seen CSPAN back when I was bothered to have cable tv. It's hilarious.  No matter what the issue is seem just about every Democrat votes one way and every Republican votes the other. Hrmm, politicians set a new record for party line voting :yes: (?) In theory, our leaders should be better educated and informed than your "average" man on the street. In reality, it seems they've should their intellect to their party and to whatever special interest and there's not much reason to trust them more than the collective voice of the people tempered by rule of constitutional law
Will you be saddened, if Harry Reid is demoted?
»
Nope, I'm not. The sad truth is that Nevadans didn't actually want Harry again, but Sharon Angle ran such a poor campaign there wasn't a way for him to lose. "Harry Reid got elected to the Senate. Your housing values dropped." Either she's an idiot herself, or thought the voters were. You know, those folks that watched their housing values go up until the 2008 recession, when almost the entire country's housing values dropped. I tried to tell you before, now the SSM is becoming a non-issue and is all but inevitable in all states and territories, I'm not as tied the Democrats. I was raised to be a Republican, but I broke with the party over that issue. The Republicans still practice and idiotic and over-simplified version of supply-side that pretty well can only result in increased deficits. But Democrats have the same problem with Keynesian economics. Despite what Fox and conservative pundits will tell it's not all tax and spend all the time. In fact, many Democrats are equally guilty of that ignorance. State Question 3
"State Question No. 3

Shall the Nevada Revised Statutes be amended to create a 2% tax to be imposed on a margin of the gross revenue of entities doing business in Nevada whose total revenue for any taxable year exceeds $1 million, with the proceeds of the tax going to the State Distributive School Account to be apportioned among Nevada's school districts and charter schools?"


Got defeated with almost 79% of the vote :yes: That issue had have been put forward by a Democrat that didn't know the real way to get more money for schools would be to grow the economy.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #199
(Your country has had bold and persistent leadership too. Or have you forgotten Salazar already?)

I never forget what is important.
Portugal doesn't much matter, on the world stage…

I anticipate the time when America doesn't much matter to anyone else.* (A third of a continent ought to be enough for anybody, no?  :)  ) I hate to admit it, but Rodney King asked a pertinent question: Can't we all just get along?
Well, we're closer now to being able to than -I think- ever before…

Don't be naive, it doesn't suits you well... :)

You seem to prefer that a lost world be reclaimed; while others insist that a never before world exists, if only some "magical" formula is pronounced by enough of The People!
I'm happy enough with the people I meet. They're not so bad…

You're almost there. That's a feat for an American.

Thank you, I let you discuss between yourselves your problems.
A matter of attitude.