Democracy in America…

Topic: Democracy in America… (Read 71395 times)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #125 – 2014-10-13, 08:17:49

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-13, 06:08:17

Big Business is likely your bugaboo. Big Government is mine

Big government itself is often a function of big business. Note I said often, but not always. I've failed to be able to show you is the big business and their proxies (ie even the Tea Party) like to talk small government, but once their puppets are elected more laws are enacted in their favor and government grows.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-13, 06:08:17

What I have a problem with is your penchant for wanting to use the government to enforce your Shhh!

Nope. Your penchant is still assigning a bunch of political positions to me that I never, ever supported. But let's explore this. The GOP wanted constitutional amendments at both the Federal and state levels against equal marriage. I fought against it and my side is winning on constitutional grounds. Which side was really using the government to enforce their shit and which side was working to reduce the government's power? The "liberal" side's effect was to have laws stricken from the books, laws the conservatives worked hard to put there. Why do I keep bringing that issue up? For me, it's personal. But more than that, I don't give a crap about "liberal" politics. Why the quotes? Because that position isn't necessarily liberal; libertarians and centrists have adopted that position as well. I mean real libertarians, not just GOP/TPers that call themselves that because it's fashionable but have actually taken up very few Libertarian positions.

So, no, I don't need big government any more than you do. Nor do I call for anyone to be silenced. My ant-Marriage foes have been defeated in the court of public opinion and in the court of law. I don't even call for the Kochs to be silenced, just that their money doesn't drown out all other voices. Conservatives seem to think in black and white. If you want limits on campaign financing, it must mean your end game is to silence the opposition. No. The end game is for all voices to be heard. Why do you think the LGBT had to sue about marriage in the first place? Could be possibly be because when they tried to use the normal political processes that the Right metaphorically shoved dollars bills in in the mouths, preventing them from having their say?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #126 – 2014-10-13, 13:21:29

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-13, 08:17:49

Big government itself is often a function of big business. Note I said often, but not always. I've failed to be able to show you is the big business and their proxies (ie even the Tea Party) like to talk small government, but once their puppets are elected more laws are enacted in their favor and government grows.

Some tell whopping lies.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #127 – 2014-10-13, 20:30:06

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-13, 06:08:17

(mjm, I assume you're awaiting the Rapture — so you don't really care to get involved… )

You may or may not have noticed, but Jesus seems to be tarrying, as they say. Nothing stops the Rapture from happening today, but nothing guarantees that God won't wait a few thousand more years either. In the meantime, until the Rapture happens we do the job He gave us to do.

Now--- how, exactly, does that have anything to do with whether corporations are persons, whether they can be seen in mirrors (hey, it's October, gotta consider the possibilities) and whether a corporation should have the same right, as a person that all the thousands of actual people who work for the corporation enjoy-- people who, I might point out, might not share the corporate view of how the country should be run? Should the corporation have the same right-- or even superior rights, given the ability of Exxon to spend money-- as Joe in the mail-room?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #128 – 2014-10-13, 22:46:41

Remarkable that jimbro got a real pitcure of that man.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #129 – 2014-10-13, 23:57:26

Well, mjm, I'll expect you at the next round of Occupy protests… And if you snitch on your pastor -for saying things that might "influence" an election- the IRS might revoke your church's non-profit status, and levy heavy fines. (You tithe, right?

)
Joe in the mail-room has more rights than Exxon, and you know it. Exxon has more money… Jealousy is a prevalent and powerful motive, for — well, nothing good that I can think of… Perhaps you can help me out:
What good comes from jealousy?

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-13, 12:30:06

In the meantime, until the Rapture happens we do the job He gave us to do.

Sow discord? Succor those who would? Promote envy and promulgate false witness?
Of course, I know, you're just "going with the flow"… Barabbas did so, he thought…
If you can't connect your views to your heart-felt beliefs — which should you re-consider?

Sorry to be so blunt; but we lack a "whisper" function here…

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #130 – 2014-10-14, 00:22:47

Give me a few minutes. I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that a corporation is a person in the eyes of the law. Strange business, that.

I've heard about individuals incorporating themselves for tax/business purposes, but as an I.C. I never could figure how that would be advantageous either. But, I can understand how a one-man corporation could be a person.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #131 – 2014-10-14, 02:07:18

Although I think you must be being facetious, I'll answer your points:
First, a corporation has obligations and responsibilities; as well as interests. (You think the latter should be curtailed?)
Second, I tried to search for the meaning of "I.C." and after two pages of Google results I gave up. Then I returned to post… And I realized you meant an independent contractor. Where -Mr. I.C.- would you be, without corporations…?

Groups of people assembling for determined purposes is an odd concept, for you?

The idea of ExxonMobile is a horrible for the likes of Sang; but you should know better!
You don't like their "message" then don't buy their products! Don't watch/listen to/read media they advertise in. Don't invest in their stock, or in that of any of their "collaborators"…

But -before we go off the deep end: What, precisely, has ExxonMobile ever said that you disagreed with?
(I'll understand, if you don't answer…)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #132 – 2014-10-14, 03:21:45

I'd be happy to clear it up for you, but I don't know how to pronounce Exxon.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #133 – 2014-10-14, 05:21:48

I've had a disturbing thought.
How is Exxon pronounced in Mexico?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #134 – 2014-10-14, 07:47:18

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-14, 02:07:18

You don't like their "message" then don't buy their products! Don't watch/listen to/read media they advertise in. Don't invest in their stock, or in that of any of their "collaborators"…

Until the battery life of electrics is long enough for extended trips, and the price is is brought down to the level of conventional cars, there's not thatch much of a choice. Oh, use the bus. Unfortunately, I tried that and it took about an hour and half for a twenty minute trip by car. I'm sure the tourist routes along the strip and to the Fremont Experience downtown are reasonably efficient, but locals trying to get around will live half their lives on the bus. It isn't even that Exxonmobile and friends are horrible . It's that their billions dominate the political dialog. It's becomes impossible for the voice of the real common man to be heard through all the oil.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-14, 02:07:18

But -before we go off the deep end: What, precisely, has ExxonMobile ever said that you disagreed with?
(I'll understand, if you don't answer…)

They're just an example. It actually doesn't matter what they said. It's the principle of endemic corruption brought about by outsized campaign contributions that you don't seem to understand.
Let me quote Will.

Quote

Such laws are growth-inhibiting and job-limiting, injuring the economy while corrupting politics. They are residues of the mercantilist mentality, which was a residue of the feudal guild system, which was crony capitalism before there was capitalism.

Indeed. But at the end he blames the conservatives for this antiquated and corrupt system.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #135 – 2014-10-14, 17:56:37

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-13, 23:47:18

It actually doesn't matter what they said. It's the principle of endemic corruption brought about by outsized campaign contributions that you don't seem to understand.

Campaign contributions are already limited. And every presidential candidate (save one...

) since the 70s has accepted public funding and its spending limits. So you must be talking about something else...

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-13, 23:47:18

[ExxonMobile is] just an example. It actually doesn't matter what they said.

An example of what?

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-13, 23:47:18

It's becomes impossible for the voice of the real common man to be heard through all the oil.

That's because they're riding the bus!

The windows on modern buses don't open (except in emergencies); you'd have to ride along with them, if you wanted to hear what they say...
But -seriously- you're veering into the No True Scotsman fallacy! Whatever definition of "the common man" you give will run afoul of established Constitutional principles.
Am I wrong, in assuming you'd have no problems with that, so long as your "rights" are protected?

But, Sang, the path to that road has a toll gate: The Amendment process.
(Although I, personally, liked Derbyshire's tweak: Limit the franchise to the middle one or two standard deviations of average IQ... Keep the dolts of both tails away from The Common Good determination!)

BTW: What's your problem with oil? (Black Gold, Texas Tea...)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #136 – 2014-10-14, 21:15:59

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-14, 17:56:37

But -seriously- you're veering into the No True Scotsman fallacy! Whatever definition of "the common man" you give will run afoul of established Constitutional principles.

And you seem to be perilously close to confusing a corporate entity or cartel of them that might legally be a person with an actual common man. This is how conservatives tend to trip themselves up. I understand. How do you determine that one faction is composed of the common men and the other isn't? But at some point common sense has to kick in and say Exxonmobile, et al are not the common man, but corporate interests that corrupt the political process. If most of the corporations were physical people, they would need to be locked away for their social-pathology. Ever wonder why the GOP is so against campaign finance reform? Because it would negatively impact their chief benefactors influence on the political process. That's what this is really about. Their is no deep principal involved,

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-14, 17:56:37

Am I wrong, in assuming you'd have no problems with that, so long as your "rights" are protected?

My rights, no quotes, were protected and enhanced by the GOP itself. They had to pass certain things into state constitutional amendments to pacify religious voters. Oops, they didn't listen when we told them from the word go those amendments were unconstitutional as hell. That's what happens when you piss all over the constitution just to appease one sub-set of voters, huh? But it didn't matter. The GOP had already bamboozled the Christians into voting for them so they could go on with their real business of protecting their corporate patrons and maintaining the neo-mercantilism described above.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #137 – 2014-10-14, 22:31:11

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-14, 13:15:59

But at some point common sense has to kick in and say Exxonmobile, et al are not the common man, but corporate interests that corrupt the political process.

I understand your et al. for what it is: A bill of attainder... Corporate interests? You simply mean that groups that (might) disagree with you have the right to shut up! Or else...

Of course, I find the corrupting influence in a place you refuse to see: Favoritism (and its concomitant coercion) by the government. Limit the power of the government, and you've effectively forstalled the worst influences and avoided the effects of corruption.

Conservatives, Republicans and Christians need not apply for their 1st Amendment rights, eh?

Oh, you only mean successful businesses? What do they say that bothers you so much?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #138 – 2014-10-15, 01:24:41

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-14, 22:31:11

Conservatives, Republicans and Christians need not apply for their 1st Amendment rights, eh?

Oh, you only mean successful businesses? What do they say that bothers you so much?

Isn't that odd? Didn't I just read a post from you that seemed to indicate that I, as a Christian, had little to say because (a) I'm just waiting for the Rapture anyway and (b) if I do say anything, I risk my congregation's tax-exempt status even though I have no position other than being a member? I could be wrong, but it seems to me Sang is more willing to allow me my first-amendment rights than you are, ol' bean.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #139 – 2014-10-15, 02:30:17

Well, young bean, did I mention bringing the coercive force of the government to bear against you?

(You should be aware of the difference…)
When I mention your congregation's tax-exempt status, I refer to recent (the latest administration's administration -for which, noone is responsible!- of certain federal agencies…). You know that; or you confess an ignorance and disconnect that only feeds my disillusionment with the American polity…
Still, I'd have you (and Sang) and almost anyone I know and that he and you know…) determine public policy. But within the confines of the rights and "privileges" codified by our Constitution, if you please!

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-14, 17:24:41

I could be wrong, but it seems to me Sang is more willing to allow me my first-amendment rights than you are, ol' bean.

You are most certainly wrong: You only need to oppose what he wants or argue against what he's for…
As far as I'm concerned, say what you want. Use your money or your ability to convince others to spend theirs in furtherance of whatever "floats your boat"… (I'm unlikely to be swayed by slick TV commercials or bold-print newspaper editorials. Or "right-wing blogs" — Sang's latest mode of demonization…) But I'd ask: In what way did you think that "Sang is more willing to allow me my first-amendment rights than you are"?
Seriously, mjm, playing Devil's Advocate doesn't suit you!

BTW: I am opposed to the current law, that precludes -by law- pastors from talking "politics"… (Ask Sang if he is!) I think it a gross violation of the !st Amendment!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #140 – 2014-10-15, 22:33:31

Two recent wrinkles: The right to sue and the right to "free exercise" of religion have elements of corporate rights, I think.
The issues are complex, and some here might just want to pursue policy objectives… As you know, I'm opposed to such a viewpoint; and I'm convinced that some here are consistently in favor of it.

When have I ever asked for government's power to be wielded, to prevent my opponents from speaking or contributing their money to support their causes? (mjm, I ask you specifically…) Sang, what -I wonder- really animates you animus?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #141 – 2014-10-16, 07:09:45

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-15, 01:24:41

I could be wrong, but it seems to me Sang is more willing to allow me my first-amendment rights than you are, ol' bean.

I live and breath First Amendment rights, particularly free speech. I happen to disagree him that the largest corporations on the planet with almost the entirety of the state legislators and our Federal senators in their pockets are the common man.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-15, 02:30:17

Still, I'd have you (and Sang) and almost anyone I know and that he and you know…) determine public policy. But within the confines of the rights and "privileges" codified by our Constitution, if you please!

Within the constitution, it's all but impossible to prevent the states from passing regulation that "happens" to favor incumbent businesses and restrict new competition. Again, see George Will's rent seeking article. The Federal government can do via the "necessary and proper laws clause" and the "Interstate commerce clause." In principle I would agree to limit what the governments can do to favor the corporations,but history and the both constitution tell us that it's a no-go. The only remedy would seem to be campaign finance reform. That is unless you want to change constitution itself and in a way the weakens states rights. Good luck with that one. Oh, change the state constitutions? The Kochs can by the legislators with their pocket change...

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #142 – 2014-10-16, 19:36:06

You're all over the board here, Sang… But let me focus on your (the) main point:

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-15, 23:09:45

The only remedy would seem to be campaign finance reform.

You seem to want to include as part of campaigning any communication, about issues and candidates, by anyone — excepting individuals, provided they aren't too rich…
That's not a subtly. That communications might "influence" elections is all that is required for them to run afoul of S.J. Res. 19!
It's a plain attempt to obviate the 1st Amendment's Free Speech guarantee. (I don't seem to recall where, exactly, the class of "common men" is specified as privileged -and all others dis-privileged… Or where, in the Constitution, Congress or state legislatures are granted the power to determine such classes.) And your support for it is intimately connected to your policy preferences: That is, you don't like the content of some speech; so, you'd preclude it.
By implication, those who'd speak in opposition to your preferred policies should be constrained — because, why?
They're rich? They're conservative? They're Republican? They're religious Christians? They're incorporated?
What test would you have?

—————————————————————
Another wrinkle: Wouldn't the government, at one or another level, have to determine what constitutes legitimate press, to apply the bill's last portion?
Licensing, perhaps…

I submit that such is a can of worms that no one wants to open!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #143 – 2014-10-19, 16:13:20

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-16, 19:36:06

I don't seem to recall where, exactly, the class of "common men" is specified as privileged -and all others dis-privileged…

I didn't say they were. I just pointed out the obvious fact that the giant corporations aren't the common man after to pontificated about the rights of the common man. You're opposed to rent seeking, yet against any efforts to do something about it. Typical Republican mentality. Oh that's right, limit the governments ability to assist entrenched corporate interest did their ditches even deeper. But you have a problem. Most of the rent seeking is done at the state and local levels. Suddenly we have another state's rights issue, since no state would agree to this claiming they have the right to compete with other states to have X Corp build a factory (in fact, they'd be correct.) So what do you do? There are a couple options. Limit the amount of influence the special interests have on politicians or limit the amount of money the political campaign can spend.

That doesn't mean limiting free speech, you can set up automated tweets and whatnot all day long for almost nothing. This bizarre idea that money = free speech is so 20th century. Give it a couple decades, and I promise future SCOTUS rulings on this will be legalese for "Are you fucking retarded?" That is if justices take up the case at all, after the unfavorable ruling on campaign finance in the lower court. This the 21st century. The future is now. Expensive television ads that people mute out are being replaced by interactive communication with your target audience. The number of people you can reach is no longer limited by your assets. Therefore the 21st century solution says that you can indeed limit campaign donations, and it has nothing to do with First Amendment rights. Right now, we happen to have a SCOTUS with an old fashioned mindset on what it takes to spread your message.

Am I wrong? Am I crazy? If I told you 20 years ago that gay marriage would be law in 31 states in 2014 and was all but inevitable in all 50, you would have thought I fell out of my tree and hit my head. A few years ago, it was a "radical liberal" notion. "Liberals" think a generation if not more in the future; conservatives think a generation or more in the past. That's why "liberals" shape the future. Have you noticed this? Beginning against slavery was "liberal" idea. Equal protection under the law for blacks, likewise. Universal suffrage.... Get it? In the end, conservatives lose every time. And none of the disasters conservatives warned of happened.

The future is the common man, be he liberal or conservative or middle of the road, have as loud a voice as Exxonmobile, etc and the corporate oligarchy that dares call itself "Republic" will crumble. The democracy is coming. Don't like it? Pack your bags and move to Russia.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #144 – 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-19, 08:13:20

You're opposed to rent seeking, yet against any efforts to do something about it.

I'm opposed to regulation that pretends to do something about it.
Remove the incentives… You say it can't be done; I believe you believe it: All the folks you vote for -for other reasons?- are the worst offenders — only, you don't think so; because they "talk the talk" on the social issues you care about, and at least appoint Progressive judges!
Yes, that's the only reasonable way: Remove the incentives. But you wouldn't care to do that, because — well, who would control the market…!?

If "the democracy is coming," your position becomes precarious… You don't see that?
————————————————————————————————
BTW: I'd agree, that the "influence" of big spenders is becoming less important due to technology… Why are you, then, so opposed to them spending their money fruitlessly?

I don't need to move to Russia. I can participate in politics right here (even in California…). Don't you argue that, if I've been successful, then my "influence" should be curtailed by the government?
I think I understand your incoherence… I think you never will.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #145 – 2014-10-19, 20:59:56

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

I don't need to move to Russia.

Need? why "need"?
I think it would be a pleasure, both for Russians and Americans if you did it.
Also for you.

You'll find there much more structured minds.
Course you will not find "democracy in America" there. Or anywhere else, impossibilities are difficult things to find.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #146 – 2014-10-20, 01:44:22

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

and at least appoint Progressive judges!

Still haven't learned? The same sex marriage bans where thrown out as quickly by conservative judges. This mostly conservative SCOTUS wouldn't even hear the the states' cases to keep the marriage bans. The point being, the value of the judges ideology has been greatly overestimated by all sides. They have to side not with the right or the left, but with the constitution. The judicial branch by necessity is more politically independent than the other two branches of government.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

But you wouldn't care to do that, because — well, who would control the market…!?

What market do I have a chance in hell of controlling? Or even want to control? C'mon, man. Maybe you're thinking metaphorically, the marketplace of ideas? The Right has all but handed that over.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

Don't you argue that, if I've been successful, then my "influence" should be curtailed by the government?

I just gave you a glimpse of how it's impossible for the government to curtail your influence, not without somehow trying to censor the internet. You're still confusing personal success with a entrenched corporate entity who's goal to use the government to crush the competition before it has a chance to flower. In doing so, they're holding back the economy in addition to the progress of their respective industry.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-19, 20:01:26

I think I understand your incoherence… I think you never will.

I'm not incoherent. Certainly the corporate interests have the right to request certain regulation, use social network tools in the attempt to get the public on their side, and buy television ads, put columns in the newspapers, etc. Free speech intact, check. But this crony capitalism is not free speech.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #147 – 2014-10-20, 13:13:29

Which crony capitalism, Sang? Would you care to specify the abuses that cause you so much ire?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #148 – 2014-10-20, 13:27:47

Crony Capitalism is an equal-opportunity employer anyway. It doesn't care whether the politician is a Democrat or a Republican.

Illinois has had problems with its governors. George Ryan (R) was voted out and replaced by Rod Blagojevich (D). Both of these governors were notably corrupt and engaged in "pay to play" politics. If you were a construction contractor looking to do business with Illinois, you had to kick in something to the governor's re-election campaign. That's just the way it was. The thing finally came to a head when Blago decided it would be a great idea to sell Obama's US Senate seat to the next occupant of that seat. You know what happened next: something that was intended to be private-hush-hush got blown into the major media, Blago got impeached and then booted out of office, indicted, tried, convicted and served time. The hapless fellow who got Obama's seat only got to serve out the remaining term, after that his name was so soiled by the way he got the seat that he couldn't get re-elected even by his friends, and we got a governor since who has turned in a rather lackluster performance. But-- that's crony politics/crony capitalism in Illinois.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #149 – 2014-10-20, 16:40:39

I feel your pain, mjm — all the way out here in California! But I don't see a federal problem, there or here… Do you?
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Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-19, 17:44:22

This mostly conservative SCOTUS […]