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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 232751 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #400 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Democratic values in practice. And then, they say that Putin is a dictator.

Quote from: Frenzie on

If Russia Today is any indication, they're probably right.

What I said they might very well be right about is this:
Quote
The Ukrainian media watchdog claims that Russian information content is “threatening Ukraine’s national security, sovereignty and territorial integrity, promoting war, violence, cruelty, spreading interethnic and racial hostility, encouraging religious strife, encroaching on human rights and freedoms.”

Whether they're right to ban it for those reasons is a different discussion.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #401 –
Quote from: ersi on

There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation. You are quoting a thing that Putin had nothing to do with.

You said that media war is real war. Is Russia now at war with Baltic states? Should Baltic states ban Russian media? Just asking.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #402 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
What I said they might very well be right about is this:
Quote
The Ukrainian media watchdog claims that Russian information content is “threatening Ukraine’s national security, sovereignty and territorial integrity, promoting war, violence, cruelty, spreading interethnic and racial hostility, encouraging religious strife, encroaching on human rights and freedoms.”

Here are articles on RT tagged "Ukraine turmoil":
http://rt.com/trends/ukraine-turmoil/
Can you provide few samples of articles which contain bad things described above?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #403 –
Quote from: ersi on

There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation.

Imagine an invasion without anybody getting hurt.
Imagine an invasion where the invadors are welcomed by the locals.
Imagine an annexation where the poeple wish to be annexed.
Imagine all these, wonder if you can.

I also wonder what the most democratic leader of the world does wrong when he is bombing and invading.
The effects are slightly different.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #404 –
Quote from: krake on

Quote from: ersi on

There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation.

Imagine an invasion without anybody getting hurt.
Imagine an invasion where the invadors are welcomed by the locals.
Imagine an annexation where the poeple wish to be annexed.
Imagine all these, wonder if you can.

I also wonder what the most democratic leader of the world does wrong when he is bombing and invading.
The effects are slightly different.

I don't have to imagine. Russians have staged things this way in my country a number of times in living memory. Not once, but several times. Look it up.

I warmly recommend you, please stop imagining. Open your eyes and look at the facts. It may seem lucky when the events go bloodlessly, but it's a much more painful humiliation this way for the losing side. Russia is doing it AGAIN. It's far from the first time.

It's also not the first time to see a Westerner blissfully ignorant of the concepts of propaganda, fifth column, and media war, and a Russian side-stepping the concepts when they are an inconvenient truth.
 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #405 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
You said that media war is real war. Is Russia now at war with Baltic states? Should Baltic states ban Russian media? Just asking.

You mean like this? :whistle:

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
Here are articles on RT tagged "Ukraine turmoil":
http://rt.com/trends/ukraine-turmoil/
Can you provide few samples of articles which contain bad things described above?

I probably could, including the fact that Dolgov is given a sounding board in the very article, but I'm alluding to these kinds of misleading spins and a few more I've come across since.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #406 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

I probably could, including the fact that Volgov is given a sounding board in the very article, but I'm alluding to these kinds of misleading spins and a few more I've come across since.

When you talk about misleading spins - do you mean something like "peaceful protesters"?

"Peaceful protesters" who killed 20+ policemen, "occupation and annexation" which was supported by majority of local population, "pro-Russian self defense forces" who look exactly like Spetsnaz GRU, "invasion" during which Russian troops did not kill even a single person, etc, etc.

All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #407 –
The hype on Ukraine etc has been on overdrive here in the know-it-all West.  Invasion, sovereignty, interfering and all the other words dished out by political leaders and the media.  Obama pontificates on the absurdity of upsetting a nation;s soveren position and it's right to do as it wants. This coming from a man who has a country that has invaded nation after nation. Interfering and invading and so on. How the deuce can he get away with treating us as if we are all stupid? It is okay for one nation along with it's other Western poodles to cause wars continually and then lecture and lay down restrictions regarding Ukraine. It is a damn insult to intelligence.

Ukraine's mess was essentially self-created and very much abetted by western interferers. Indeed they could not get into Kiev fast enough to show solidarity with an illegal destruction of a democratically elected government. The peaceful protests became violent because of the Right Faction and other extremists who did the violence and shot police and other extremist gangsters. The Kiev rump were content enough to use these neo-Nazis but now cannot control what has got out the box. Small wonder Ukrainian troops felt demoralised by the numpties in Kiev and many have changed sides.

Obama talked utter tripe on freedom and the will of the people keech. Supports the gangsters in Kiev who are there illegally - and who DON'T represent the country. At the same time a legitimate government in Crimea exercises legal rights with a referendum wanted by the people and that is wrong?? Crimea is back home where it has wanted to be so forget it that is gone and nothing tobe done about it.  Having supported a bunch of thugs in Kiev and now prepared to dish out a loan the nation will probably go downhill because as I have stated austerity will hit in and in a very big way.  The West has helped make the disaster and is trying to justify itself and cover up it's stupidity over the rubbish about freedom , etc.

Well done Crimea as it has got out before the place gets worse by it's own hands and the Western hypocrites.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #410 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

"occupation and annexation" which was supported by majority of local population, "pro-Russian self defense forces" who look exactly like Spetsnaz GRU, "invasion" during which Russian troops did not kill even a single person, etc, etc.

All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?

All the same spins apply with Hitler. During the annexation of Austria nobody died and the majority of the population was in favour of it (or so Hitler said), so, was it an annexation or was it not? Nobody died during the invasion of Czechoslovakia either. Quite to the contrary, many regained their rightful homeland and everybody else also greatly benefitted - that's what Hitler said. Many in the West "spinned" it differently of course.

By your logic, you could very well argue that Hitler didn't invade, annex and occupy anybody until he attacked Poland. You could also argue that the Baltic countries voluntarily joined the USSR in 1940, because the puppet governments set up under the invading army expressed their wish to that effect. In fact, this is exactly how Russians see history here. Where are they getting it from? They have their own history books that accord with the Russian view of the world. It is so conveniently very much like the American view of the world: When "we" do it, it's liberation, when "they" do it, it's an evil threat, fascism etc.

What Russia is doing in Ukraine is invasion, occupation, and annexation. There's no putting it in any other terms.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #411 –
Quote from: ersi on
When "we" do it, it's liberation

Russian government uses term "rejoining with Crimea". One more spin. So, what exactly spin will be used in particular situation depends on point of view. Blaming media in use of misleading spins is the same as blaming them in having different point of view.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #413 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Quote from: ersi on
When "we" do it, it's liberation

Russian government uses term "rejoining with Crimea".
Exactly. Liberation, rejoining, etc. instead of the politologically correct annexation and invasion. In politology, when your army crosses the international border, it's invasion. And when you legalise occupation, it's annexation. The rest is spin.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #414 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?

We can investigate using some quotes I used about Western media:

"I imagine it's not violent and exciting enough [for American media to report on it]."

"[HLN] is kind of a sensational rag"

Or to quote a friend of mine:
Quote from: Axonn
It seems to me that a lot of what’s been written reeks of hypocrisy and a complete lack of interest in a deeper understanding of the underlying problem. This shouldn’t be a surprise. After all, the media empires are employed in the service of economic blocks whose only interest is to prey like vultures upon a country whose inhabitants, throughout history, have not been treated kindly from a geopolitical point of view. So, dear fellow journalists, go and find your courage; try to understand more than what your rich, corrupt leaders pay you to. While these words are targeted especially at Western media, at least we have a media. In countries like Russia, and even worse, China, the entire concept of journalism has been turned into a sad joke.



Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
Here is one more sample of great Western media:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html

So, terrorist, criminal, anti-semite, and xenophobe is just a 21st century Robin Hood and national hero.

Yet the American media are also Jewish-owned Zionist propaganda machines. Something doesn't add up.

Two points:
1) American media are Western media, but Western media are not American media.
2) Western media are not a monolith spewing government-sanctioned propaganda only.

Anyway, you think "radical nationalist leader" sounds positive? Or any of this?

"But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis."

"But it's also easy to worry about Right Sector's true ideological leanings when you see the red-and-black flags, stylized insignia and other paraphernalia of its militiamen."

The message I got from this article? Many people in Ukraine liked this guy, but from the writer's perspective the whole movement looks a lot like a bunch of creepy Neo-Nazis.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #415 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
Anyway, you think "radical nationalist leader" sounds positive? Or any of this?

"But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis."

"But it's also easy to worry about Right Sector's true ideological leanings when you see the red-and-black flags, stylized insignia and other paraphernalia of its militiamen."

I agree that article contains few negative paragraphs about Muzychko and Right Sector. However, general impression which I got from this article is that they try to whitewash both this guy and this movement. And if you'll read comments to this article - you'll find that I'm not the only person who got this impression.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #416 –
Response 1: We no longer believe that painting cartoonesque villains is the right way to go. That mostly goes back to Hannah Arendt's banality of evil. It's important to realize that the neighborhood psychopath appears like a nice person. I heard (or read?) a similar interview with Marc Dutroux's wife not too long ago. That doesn't mean they were whitewashing his horrendous crimes. To me, it made the whole affair that much more tragic.

Response 2: CNN isn't so great? I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!

But mostly, I'll stick with response 1. For CNN, I thought this article was fairly decent.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #417 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Here is one more sample of great Western media:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html

Quote
But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

Western governments didn't worry because of the Right Sector during the putsch. Without Right Sector, no putch. Make the devil your friend as long he can be useful. How far can hypocrisy go?




Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #418 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Two points:
1) American media are Western media, but Western media are not American media.
2) Western media are not a monolith spewing government-sanctioned propaganda only.

1) Of course not but more than once an echo of American media.
2) I would stress the word "only"

However it's always useful and instructive to compare the bias of both sides.
And since we are at it, could you recommend some Western sites (English or German language) which you think that aren't biased?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #420 –
Quote from: krake on
However it's always useful and instructive to compare the bias of both sides.

That leads to "Fair & Balanced"  reporting. No, a bunch of lies doesn't deserve a veneer of legitimacy.

Quote from: krake on
And since we are at it, could you recommend some Western sites (English or German language) which you think that aren't biased?

Of course not, nor is there anything wrong with bias.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #421 –
Well krake I have said the same about the West being aware that the overthrow of the duly elected government was aided by the violence of the Right Sector and it's similars. They also have influential ministerial posts in the stolen government.  As for bias when one watches the violence metted out in front of cameras in the Procurator Fiscal's office and then to a head of a tv channel in his office (publicly forced to sigh his resignation), etc a violent jack-in-the-box is obvious.

Obama on television was cringe making at it's worst. Somehow the mess in Iraq is okay and the Crimea a lot worse?? How is that for intelligence insulting? How can a world leader who has a nation that has invaded others sometimes with no UN permissiojn, etc able to stand up and give that stuff out? Obama talks a good game but mouths lies, deceit and a disgrace. The only saving grace (and that is stretched) is that neither McCain or Ryan was present as all hell would have been let loose. McCann is a complete headcase and that decent (?) people put him in is terrible. Somehow the US and EEC rabbit on about democracy and freedom along with the rights of the people. The fact that a deomocracically elected government was destroyed by a nbunch of thugs who were unelected comes under those phrases (along with the violence and killing) but a referendum by a legitimate government in Crimea is evil makes you scratch your head.

Those that took over in Kiev had no interest in the east or south of the country at all so why should they be led like puppies into something they were not part of? There has essentially been silence on this Forum regarding that telephone chat between the EEC boss and the Estonian Foreitn Minister. Same too for the Assistant Secretary of State in DC who used the a phone call that the EEC should "f--- off." So much for Obam and the chums in the EEC. Now we have another call by that crazy woman who is a former Prime Minister of Ukraine and her rancid conversation.

For Obama to say his admin had no involvement or wanted such in the internal affairs of Ukraine is a lie. He couldn't stop that damn head case, McCain going but his chums in the EEC went to Kiev and rallied behind the fighers and killers in Kiev. Now that the IMF is going to fish out a loan to a country that is almost belly up is going to make things worse for the ordinary Ukrainians. Pensions will be much reduced, taxes up, power bills will rocket, general prices. The strictness of the money will penalise millions of Ukainians who had no part in a rump taking over in Kiev aided by their Nazi bully boys. People living in the west of the country who were not part of the coup and millions in the east will suffer and small wonder their is trouble brewing east of the capital. This was not caused by Russia who at one stage was going to give loans at a reasonable situation but the group of power seekers and would be SS men.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #424 –
Forget Crimea, what about....?