Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #325 – 2014-03-23, 08:42:32 From that site:QuoteAt the end of last year, the voting population of Sevastopol was 385,462. This tailored to the children who did not have the right to vote. 474,137 – 385,462 = 88,675 people accidentally appeared in Sevastopol to vote during the referendum. 474 137/385 462 * 100 = 123% of Sevastopol voted for entry into Russia.Perhaps the answer is that some of Sevastopol's voters are allowed to vote more than once. Or, better yet, the Russian troops stationed there acquired voting rights.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #326 – 2014-03-23, 08:50:48 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 08:35:19Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 07:37:56Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda your only source?As I said, it's not only about Crimea. You can find these things in Russian sources for all Russian elections. This is not a special case. It's a normal case. You can ask Josh, if you want some third opinion.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #327 – 2014-03-23, 09:04:32 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 08:50:48Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 08:35:19Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 07:37:56Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda your only source?As I said, it's not only about Crimea.So you can't. Thanks.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #328 – 2014-03-23, 09:11:10 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 09:04:32Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 08:50:48Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 08:35:19Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 07:37:56Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda your only source?As I said, it's not only about Crimea.So you can't. Thanks.I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #329 – 2014-03-23, 09:12:22 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 07:37:56Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/Reports like this do not only concern Crimea, but all elections in Russia. It's absolutely normal. It's the way democracy works, as they say. "You, the people, voted for it, and we respect your wish and thank you for the mandate."Referred document is in Ukrainian... Does it explain already everything or do you still need explanations?Well, if explanations are still needed... Let's get back to the past to review how it all started.97% of Crimea use Russian as their primary language. During years Ukrainian politicians talked about ukrainization and derussification. These talks made all Russian speakers doubtful about their future in Ukraine. When new group self-proclaimed themselves as government, first thing which they did was to cancel language law. This made Russian speakers even more doubtful.So, to summarize: Crimea fought for their language, they got support from Russia, due to this support they were able to win, and now, when they already won, they create their most important document in... Ukrainian.Official results of referendum in Sevastapol are available on site of Sevastopol City Council: http://sevsovet.com.ua/index.php/2011-06-30-23-44-03/12395-na-sessii-gorodskogo-soveta-utverzhdeny-rezultaty-obshchekrymskogo-referenduma-16-marta-2014-godaThe same results in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014Voter turnout: 89.5%
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #330 – 2014-03-23, 09:15:48 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 09:11:10I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?If official documents of Great Britain will be written in Ukrainian, what exactly will make those documents questionable?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #331 – 2014-03-23, 09:21:56 Krake, I reckon the whole 'referendum' can be put on doubt. It's like with Poo-tin's "presidency" -- "everybody"'s talking about "the results" -- thus setting the trolley in front of the horse(a Russian common metaphor for considering or doing things "through the arse").Before anything else, a wise guy should ask if some procedure could have been considered viable from the very beginning: the word "PROCEDURE" is ALWAYS the key word when you're feeling like to consider living by law - a major cornerstone of democracy.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 09:11:10Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 09:04:32Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 08:50:48Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 08:35:19Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-23, 07:37:56Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda your only source?As I said, it's not only about Crimea.So you can't. Thanks.I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?I reckon he didn't mean abstract reliability...I think he meant that you should've backed some figures with a sourcelink to the "referendum-side".
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #332 – 2014-03-23, 09:38:47 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-23, 09:12:22So, to summarize: Crimea fought for their language, ...Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #333 – 2014-03-23, 09:39:40 Quote from: Josh on 2014-03-23, 09:21:56Krake, I reckon the whole 'referendum' can be put on doubt. I also think about it this way. When the whole referendum is illegitimate on several grounds, moved to an earlier date by unknown authorities in Crimea, or by authorities of as dubious legitimacy as those that are ruling Ukraine right now, and conducted under the watch of invaded army, then it's not a referendum in the first place and all arguments concerning any firgures are moot. Under these circumstances, "official" figures are as suspect as any other source. And this is normal in Russia.This is my response to Sergey too.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #334 – 2014-03-23, 09:55:05 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 09:38:47Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #335 – 2014-03-23, 09:58:30 Ersi, I believe he meant where that source had got the input data to calculate their sensation in the first place. I didn't take to proceed to THEIR source there, so I don't know if THAT OTHER source had any links to the official stats or not.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #336 – 2014-03-23, 10:32:08 Quote from: Josh on 2014-03-23, 09:55:05Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 09:38:47Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.Average salary in Ukraine is $250/month, and IMF will reduce it further. For comparison: average salary in Russia is $850/month, and it grows. Interesting question: how many people will vote "no Russia, yes Ukraine" in this situation?Of course, other factors may be important here too. Language policy, vision of history, interethnic relations - in eyes of Eastern Ukraine Russia has obvious advantage here.The only factor where advantage of Russia may be not clear is her political system. But we should remember that in this situation we compare Russia not to advanced European democracy. Comparison is done to corrupted and weak political system of Ukraine. What is better: Putin authoritarianism or permanent bordello in capital of country?So, when Russia vs. Ukraine comparison is done - we have only one point where result is not obvious.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #337 – 2014-03-23, 11:01:51 Quote from: Josh on 2014-03-23, 09:55:05Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 09:38:47Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.You are aware about those meaningful measures. Are you?Some of those meaningful measures sensible for the future imposed by the IMF floating around: pensions halved, gas prizes up to 100%, prizes for electricity up to 40%, lower wages, cuts for social spending, massive devaluation of the local currency, just to name a few of them.You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...Of course, not everybody will be affected, only the vast majority.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #338 – 2014-03-23, 11:07:55 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 11:01:51You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...1. Me? No!:D2. "The next decade" is not the future in terms of a country (especially that could apply to Greece - which can be considered THE most ancient in the entire Europen History).
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #339 – 2014-03-23, 11:19:22 Quote from: Josh on 2014-03-23, 11:07:55Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 11:01:51You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...1. Me? No!:D2. "The next decade" is not the future in terms of a country (especially that could apply to Greece - which can be considered THE most ancient in the entire Europen History).You might be an exception but people have to live in the present and not in a projected future. Wonder if you can grasp that.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #340 – 2014-03-23, 11:19:33 Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-20, 08:34:27Quoteit's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory).It's worse than that. Putin wants Alaska back, something that I support if Sarah Palin goes along as a part of the deal.There is petition about Alaska already: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfNIt does not mention Sarah Palin, however.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #341 – 2014-03-23, 12:44:52 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 11:19:22...people have to live in the present...Wonder if you can grasp that.Exactly.Of course it is a background. What it seems to me you don't is that that is exactly the cause of any socialism - which in turn, leads to the exactly opposite to what "people want" - but for the whole lot of further generations. Which future and which generations inherit the consequencies of those "immediate wants" in the form of an untreatable disease.Full stop.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #342 – 2014-03-23, 15:32:31 Quote from: string on 2014-03-23, 14:21:23The Ukraine used to have the third largest stock of nuclear weapons, but they gave it up on the basis of inclusion of the Crimea in their country and the guarantee of their territorial integrity by the U.S., GB and Russia.Really?That's reassuring! The only thing left is to regain the nukes!..
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #343 – 2014-03-23, 22:45:43 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-23, 06:43:33Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-23, 04:19:20It's not as large of majority as the media would have us believe, at 58%. At the rate the Ukrainian and Tatar percentage was increasing, in 10 years or less it would have not even been majority Russian. I still call "Bullshit!" on the referendum. It's illegal because it's fraudulent, get it? Without the Russian invasion and a more believable outcome, there would be no problem.Math for elementary school students:Crimea referendum voter turnout 83%Ethnic Russians 58% at the ballotsNon Ethnic Russians 25% at the ballotsVotes for joining the Russian Federation 96% The referendum was triggered by the coup d'état which took place in Kiev. Nobody was forced to take part at the referendum. If so voter turnout would have been 100% instead of 83%. The vast majority of non ethnic Russians who took part at the referendum voted for joining the Russian Federation.Crimea's landslide vote was expected and didn't came as a surprise, not even for those rejecting it.Alea iacta est. Politics for elementary school students: whenever an election is this loopsided, there's always fraud involved. Citing a high voter turnout does not negate the high probability that the ballots were stuffed.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #344 – 2014-03-24, 06:08:07 To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons. That's at least a fourth of the eligible population. But in general, why anyone thinks the referendum should have any meaning under the circumstances is beyond me.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #345 – 2014-03-24, 07:22:57 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-24, 06:08:07To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons.During several recent weeks I've got information about situation in Ukraine from Russian media, Ukrainian media, Western media, and Crimean forums. All sources say the same: the only ethnic group which opposed referendum were Tatars. Their leaders decided to boycott referendum. The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #346 – 2014-03-24, 07:27:06 Will a call for a more robust British military presence in Germany send Russia a message?QuoteBritain should make a “military statement” to Russia by retaining 3,000 soldiers in Germany in a reverse of planned defence cuts, the former head of the Army says on Monday.Amid fears of further Kremlin land grabs in Ukraine, Lord Dannatt warns that with a “resurgent Russia” it is a poor time for the West to be “weak in resolve and muscle”.He says in an article for The Telegraph that “greater military capability” must underpin diplomacy in crises such as those in Ukraine and Syria, and that maintaining a British presence in Germany would send that message.That will make Mr. Putin think twice.What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.Now, what's on the docket for Eastern Ukraine?QuoteWASHINGTON (AP) — A top White House aide says it's possible that Russia could invade eastern Ukraine, and even U.S. military assistance would be unlikely to prevent it.Deputy national security adviser Tony Blinken says Russia seems to be trying intimidate Ukrainians by massing thousands of troops along the border.But Blinken also tells CNN's "State of the Union" that "it's possible they are preparing to move in."Do you think that Obama will make yet one more red line statement?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #347 – 2014-03-24, 07:44:21 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-24, 07:22:57Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-24, 06:08:07To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons.During several recent weeks I've got information about situation in Ukraine from Russian media, Ukrainian media, Western media, and Crimean forums. All sources say the same: the only ethnic group which opposed referendum were Tatars. Their leaders decided to boycott referendum. The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.Did the sources say "Tatars boycott the referendum" or "only Tatars boycott the referendum"? You see, there's a difference. Anyway, here ERR in Crimea: Pro-Ukrainian Voters Boycotted Referendum
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #348 – 2014-03-24, 07:57:35 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-24, 07:44:21Anyway, here ERR in Crimea: Pro-Ukrainian Voters Boycotted ReferendumQuoteKannel said voting was more active in polling stations in Russian-speaking areas.According to Kyiv International Institute of Sociology 97% of Cirmea use Russian at home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine). So, 97% of Crimea is Russian-speaking area, and hence, were more active in polling stations.QuoteShe said that many people have taken to the streets to celebrate the result, with bands playing music and people shouting.Sure, everybody opposed referendum, and when it finally finished - they went to streets to celebrate it.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #349 – 2014-03-24, 08:01:09 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-24, 07:57:35Sure, everybody opposed referendum, and when it finally finished - they went to streets to celebrate it.You implied before that only Tatars oppose it. I can equally say that only Russians favour it. Minus Josh. He doesn't favour it.
Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 232581 times)
