Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Topic: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms? (Read 335047 times)

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1250 – 2016-04-19, 22:09:24

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2016-04-19, 15:06:03

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2015-12-19, 03:20:33
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that commits suicide, regardless the choice or method, is actually doing society a favor by removing their sick, sorry, meaningless, selves from the roles of the unproductive living!

Good riddance!
That would include my sad son, you sorry asshole.

Don't bust my balls ..... 4 months after I posted it & it suddenly affects you now??!

Too bad .....

I didn't know. I've spoken about this subject at length before, & you never said anything.

I saved a guy years ago from doing himself in. I talked him out of it. He was eventually put on medication, & placed under the care of professionals, but he ended up drowning his 2 young children two or three years later. Go figure. He later hung himself in prison. I should have let him off himself. The world would have been a better place....at least for those 2 kids....at least they would have had a chance to succeed at life.

Did you see the signs, & did you do everything you could to put out the fuse?

If you did, the onus for the deed rests with your son....not with you, society, or anyone else.

To an extent I can feel your pain, because I know what pain & anguish is, but he was broken, & nothing anyone could do or say could fix that.

There was a day when I firmly believed that suicide was a cowards way out. To a degree I still do, but just like anything, some people just don't have the inner fortitude to overcome their demons, partly because they quit looking for a way, & partly because they never knew how.

To me, IMHO, failure of that magnitude is a severe defect in personality, but in the end they do society a favor in going down the path they freely chose.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1251 – 2016-04-19, 22:15:18

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2015-12-19, 03:20:33

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that commits suicide, regardless the choice or method, is actually doing society a favor by removing their sick, sorry, meaningless, selves from the roles of the unproductive living!

Good riddance!

I stand by that statement/personal opinion.

To me it's a brutal, but honest truth.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1252 – 2016-04-20, 14:57:18

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2016-04-19, 22:15:18

To me it's a brutal, but honest truth.

Maybe to you, but the rest of us aren't sociopaths

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1253 – 2016-04-20, 22:43:09

Let's try not to hurt other's deep personal feelings.
That's what a Gentleman does at such situation and this forum must remain as a gentlemen forum.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1254 – 2016-04-21, 15:21:24

And many of his posts in favor of second amendment rights and start to turn somebody basically in favor of them against them upon the realization that many of the strongest advocates of gun rights are the very ones that perhaps shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a gun. I can see it now. Homeless guy at the 7-Eleven "Got any spare change?" Smiley: Mugger! /proceeds to shoot/ Even if he wasn't a mugger, he was unproductive anyway...

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1255 – 2016-04-21, 15:29:03

Further, who the fuck is he to judge somebody that attempts or commits suicide. You don't know what's going on in the person's life, or even if he has a neurotransmitter imbalance that leads to sever depression. Medication of the later is notoriously difficult to get right and meds to cure one symptom often cause another so it keeps having to be adjusted. Perhaps Smiley himself needs meds or cognitive therapy to address the obsession with having to defend himself.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1256 – 2016-04-21, 20:17:40

Sang, did you read what Smiley wrote — his personal experience?

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2016-04-19, 14:09:24

I saved a guy years ago from doing himself in. I talked him out of it. He was eventually put on medication, & placed under the care of professionals, but he ended up drowning his 2 young children two or three years later. Go figure. He later hung himself in prison. I should have let him off himself. The world would have been a better place....at least for those 2 kids....at least they would have had a chance to succeed at life.

I agree, his words are often intemperate. But, if I remember correctly, after leaving the military he founded and ran a security company — which is to say, he stayed in the game. When he thought it was time to get out he did so, and managed to benefit his co-workers and employees. I doubt (outside of a war zone) he ever shot anyone in anger or fear…
And I doubt any of us would be in any danger in his company — except for an occasional punch in the nose, which -unfortunately- is considered assault and battery nowadays, rather than a simple lesson…

I remember a long time ago my first wife asked me "When you fight, do you go for the soft spots?" (Silly me, I thought she was talking about physical fights… I've been dumb quite often.) I said "Of course!"
You see, I was an awful bully when I was a child, and I liked to fight as I grew up. But the time came when I lost more fights than I won and I saw the need to adjust my attitude: I'd not fight, if I didn't have to; and, when I did, I'd end it as quickly as possible.
That worked better, for me.
Don't you have similar memories?

Back to the punch in the nose scenario: If I think it'll stop there, I'd take the punch. If I don't, I'll fight. And, if I fight, I'll fight to win…
I think what Smiley goes on about the 2nd Amendment for is something similar: The government won't be there to make that decision for you, whether it's just a punch in the nose… You have to be willing and able to do so yourself.
The 2nd Amendment is the "able" part of that…

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1257 – 2016-04-21, 23:45:36

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-21, 20:17:40

Sang, did you read what Smiley wrote — his personal experience?
Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2016-04-19, 14:09:24
I saved a guy years ago from doing himself in. I talked him out of it. He was eventually put on medication, & placed under the care of professionals, but he ended up drowning his 2 young children two or three years later. Go figure. He later hung himself in prison. I should have let him off himself. The world would have been a better place....at least for those 2 kids....at least they would have had a chance to succeed at life.
I agree, his words are often intemperate. But, if I remember correctly, after leaving the military he founded and ran a security company — which is to say, he stayed in the game. When he thought it was time to get out he did so, and managed to benefit his co-workers and employees. I doubt (outside of a war zone) he ever shot anyone in anger or fear…
And I doubt any of us would be in any danger in his company — except for an occasional punch in the nose..........

Haven't really needed to even resort to that Oakdale, maybe I needed to get physical & restrain someone here or there, but you've hit the nail pretty much on the proverbial head.

I've spent almost my entire adult life either defending my country, or helping others to be able to do the same for themselves on their home-front.

It's the anti-gun left that are the so called 'drama queens'. They seem to need to blow things obscenely out of proportion in order to sell their messages of distrust, negativity, & hate.

Now that said, not all gunners are perfect by a long shot, there's some assholes amongst the good, but the anti-gunners seem to always make us Pro-Gun Rights people out to be evil monsters lurking about, just itchin' for a hasty shot, when the overwhelming majority of us are good, law-abiding, standup Americans, who, while going about our daily lives, simply believe in being prepared at all times.

If a life threatening emergency is presented to us, whether we be with strangers, friends, family, or we're on our own, we can fend off the "wolves at the door", so to speak, without having to depend on any government to do it for us.

The government is never there at the most desperate times of need anyway.

Quote

.......I think what Smiley goes on about the 2nd Amendment for is something similar: The government won't be there to make that decision for you, whether it's just a punch in the nose… You have to be willing and able to do so yourself.

The 2nd Amendment is the "able" part of that…...

Spot on once again!

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1258 – 2016-04-22, 01:39:41

What precisely is an "anti-gunner?" That's a serious question because it seems that questioning one of the NRA's specific positions or the least bit of nuance in your position is enough to put one in that category. For instance, questioning the wisdom of allowing someone to enter a school sporting Ruger Mini-30 on his back does not imply that you're out to ban all guns. This is not difficult to understand unless you've allowed the NRA's "Obummer's gonna git your gun" propaganda to poison your mind. Nor does it mean you expect the government to intervene if you get punched in the nose.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-21, 20:17:40

Sang, did you read what Smiley wrote -- his personal experience?

Of course I did. But you know as well as I that anecdotes are no substitute for data. Is that what usually happens? Therapy usually work . I also viewed that comment in a dark light cast by his previous comments that showed a callousness toward human life. If, in fact, he cares about human life perhaps he shouldn't have posted at least borderline sociopathic comments alone the lines of "so what if so-and-so died." It would take too long to dig up his exact comments for you, but some what he said in the past is disturbing. The answer to this of course would be his sniper activities saved men's lives in Vietnam. Perhaps that's true, but doesn't mean that somewhere along the line he's hasn't some respect for human life, especially if that human is making a mistake that should land him jail time instead of a grave.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1259 – 2016-04-22, 02:45:01

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-21, 17:39:41

Of course I did. But you know as well as I that anecdotes are no substitute for data.

Data is a collection of anecdotes, you know?

Data without anecdotes is usually called "lies, damned lies and statistics"!
Seriously (because I know you can't take science seriously, or people you disagree with…), the link you gave said

Quote

University of Pennsylvania researchers studied 120 adults who had attempted suicide - a group known to be at high risk for repeating. Those who received the 10-week cognitive treatment were half as likely to try again - up to 18 months after the treatment - compared with those who got the usual care of referrals to community mental-health programs.

So: What about Smiley's story would have changed?
Are you saying you wouldn't feel bad about it, had you been the one who talked that man out of committing suicide?
(Hm. "Bad." Is that all? I'm beginning to think you wouldn't… And quite possibly that you wouldn't feel anything at all. That's not "how you roll"…)
You denigrate the experience of others as a matter of course. Do you wonder why I -for one- can't take you seriously?

Kiddo, I live in the real world. I confess, I don't know where you live — but it seems to me that you have a fantasy world (that includes your ideology) that you inhabit.
You're entitled to live there. But you are not as "privileged" as you think: There are other "actors" in the world. And those others aren't blinded by your ideology.
It seems to me, you just play with words (…and not that well). Most people, you don't care about in the least.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1260 – 2016-04-22, 03:25:04

What figures mean is for every story like Smiley's, there's several of successful therapy and that you should save the person's life. Anyone but a Republican understands this. Oh, lies damned lies and statistics. Anecedotes themselves are often, if not usually, incomplete or inaccurate. Or can be outright lies themselves. When and where did his story take place and what was the person's name? It's a little like Howie telling us some gibberish he watched on telly in that regard. Ancedotes are more interesting than numbers, but are all but useless in determing what really happened.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1261 – 2016-04-22, 04:45:07

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-22, 01:39:41

If, in fact, he cares about human life perhaps he shouldn't have posted at least borderline sociopathic comments alone the lines of "so what if so-and-so died." It would take too long to dig up his exact comments for you, but some what he said in the past is disturbing. The answer to this of course would be his sniper activities saved men's lives in Vietnam.

Okay, so Smiley shot people in Vietnam. Does this really suggest to some people that he cares about human lives?

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1262 – 2016-04-22, 12:06:32

Quote from: ersi on 2016-04-22, 04:45:07

Okay, so Smiley shot people in Vietnam. Does this really suggest to some people that he cares about human lives?

If you are sent to kill, there is no time for rethorical questions.
However for those questions there is a simple answer: [irony tag on]No American soldier did ever harm a Vietnamese. All they did was to defend their dear fatherland.[irony tags off]
At war everybody cares about human lives - namely about his own.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1263 – 2016-04-22, 15:35:29

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-22, 02:45:01

Data is a collection of anecdotes, you know?

Oh yeah, I forgot to address this. Even if this were true, that means we have 120 anecdotes compared to Smiley's one, Some show failure. but overall they show success and that, in fact, the patient is NOT likely to proceed to drown his sons and then kill himself. How is this hard? You can open with an anecdote, but you need have some way to show this is a typical outcome of the scenario.

We both also damn well know you wouldn't let me get away with that. However, I know why you're letting Smiley tell a single story without challenging him whereas if I said something like that you'd dismiss it as the idiocy that it is. You're basically an intelligent person, but you've poisoned your mind with right-wing blogs to the point where everything somebody you perceive as liberal is automatically wrong and the one you consider conservative is correct even if you know they've presented a poor argument. What's that? You don't do that? Well you just did for our friend here.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1264 – 2016-04-23, 01:35:43

…you're a little off there, Sang. I think people are entitled to their opinions. Just as I think Americans are entitled to their guns.
And I do respect personal experience; specially, my own! (I don't go looking for social "science" studies to reflect upon my experience — I know better.) I do understand how people's feelings can be hurt by callous talk. But it ain't a crime, and shouldn't be. Agreed?

BTW: How did you jump to the conclusion that I agreed with Smiley's blanket statement?

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1265 – 2016-04-23, 07:08:02

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-04-20, 22:43:09

Let's try not to hurt other's deep personal feelings.
That's what a Gentleman does at such situation and this forum must remain as a gentlemen forum.

Hear, hear! Unfortunately I've been ignoring this thread. I don't think that message properly belongs, but at this point it seems too late to take action.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1266 – 2016-04-23, 07:43:27

Considering how often "suicide statistics" and the air-play murder/suicide stories get…when the Gun Control forces go on their frequent rampages, you could easily have anticipated it.
(Not that you should have, Frenzie: You're a gracious host and a friend to us all — mostly, eh?

Stuff comes up in conversation that can't be foreseen; and we -well, us older ones- have histories that involve much that none here know about. How could anyone preclude "triggers"?)
I too have been touched by suicides. I'm sorry that Jaybro was hurt. But he needn't have been… He's been reading Smiley's posts as long as I have. So, Jaybro must have just have had a bad day. I have them occasionally myself.

And I'd like to offer my condolences to Smiley, too: As I mentioned in another thread, most of the harm I've done was in attempting to do good… I understand.
Life is strange.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1267 – 2016-04-23, 09:04:29

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-22, 07:35:29

[…] that means we have 120 anecdotes compared to Smiley's one, Some show failure. but overall they show success and that, in fact, the patient is NOT likely to proceed to drown his sons and then kill himself. How is this hard?

"The patient"? Are you serious? There is no "the patient"…
Dumbshit: This isn't "hard". Smiley actually lived through and with this… You're a voyeur, who pretends to be a "scientist". Your "likely" is your shield, for being incredibly and stupendously wrong.
Because it doesn't matter to you. You have your ideology, and that seems to be enough for you. Sad.
Smiley admits he was wrong. By trying to do the "right thing" you claim to be in favor of, he succeeded. The result was —shall we say, unfortunate? (Can we at least go that far? I doubt it, and I'll start cussin' if I continue with that…) But you only want to deal with statistics (not very good ones, BTW). Why?

Jaybro's story is different. (No. I don't know it… And he's entitled to keep it to himself.) And he's entitled to lash out at Smiley, for whatever reason… They'll sort it out; or not.
What still amazes me it your incredibly presumptuous attack on a "gun advocate" via this trope…
It's your "any port in a storm," I think.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1268 – 2016-04-23, 15:23:42

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-23, 09:04:29

Because it doesn't matter to you. You have your ideology, and that seems to be enough for you. Sad.

You think everything has to do with ideology. It doesn't. The data indicates success in therapy and that he's case is usual.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-23, 09:04:29

What still amazes me it your incredibly presumptuous attack on a "gun advocate" via this trope...

What trope is that supposed to be? That one anecdote pales in comparison to the outcomes of 120 patients? You must know this. Further that Smiley, Howie like, failed to provide any data. Was it some of Vietnam buddies who had severe PTSD, some random stranger? When was this so we can determine the level of care given to patients with depression (at various points, it was very poor?)

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1269 – 2016-04-23, 15:40:45

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-23, 07:23:42

That one anecdote pales in comparison to the outcomes of 120 patients?

Not if that one "anecdote" actually happened to you!
Think back to events in your own life, Sang, and consider how little solace statistics offer… And how you'd bristle, if someone told you (matter-of-factly) that they should ease your pain and make it all better.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1270 – 2016-04-24, 01:27:24

Let's go back to the rest of what Smiley said.

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that commits suicide, regardless the choice or method, is actually doing society a favor by removing their sick, sorry, meaningless, selves from the roles of the unproductive living!

This is beyond the pale and is the filth I was responding to. All as I trying to do is show that you shouldn't just let someone off themselves.` There's a small chance they might be released from mental health care prematurely or be given the wrong treatment (ie if he has a neurotransmitter imbalance, cognitive or another form of talking therapy won't help) , but that's the chance you have to take to save someone's life. Of course, I'd be very upset if I had an experience like that. Who wouldn't be? Fortunately, that's not the typical outcome.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1271 – 2016-04-24, 01:45:24

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-23, 17:27:24

[…] that's the chance you have to take to save someone's life.

Why do you have to? (I really don't understand, Sang. I've known -at least- three murderers… And, for the most part, they were decent enough people. Go figure! Had I known what they'd done or what they would do — I'd have gladly slit their throats. (That makes me a bad person; I'm okay with your approbation.)

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-23, 17:27:24

Of course, I'd be very upset if I had an experience like that. Who wouldn't be? Fortunately, that's not the typical outcome

You seem to be obsessed with the "typical"…
Are you cool with the fact that -in most countries- you'd be killed because you're homosexual? It's "typical," ya know!

I prefer a more nuanced approach: Let people live their lives however they want, provided they don't harm others — the traditional libertarian credo. But there's more:
Your "upset" (see above) strikes me as your typical reaction to what happens around you. I find it inadequate, for a man.
So, I guess we sort-of agree on that "gender" thing!

Yes, I know I'm an asshole.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1272 – 2016-04-24, 02:17:00

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-24, 01:45:24

Why do you have to?

Because you're a human being. You find somebody threatening to commit suicide, at some point 911 needs to be called. When the emergency personnel arrive, it's up to the police and mental health professionals what to do with him. Let's say you do know the person is a criminal. Who appointed you his judge, jury and executioner (through you inaction?)

To further answer you're question if you fail to at least call emergency services, if the person commits suicide there's a chance you could be held liable . The article notes there aren't clear cut rules, but you could still find yourself in court. However, I don't feel you should let the legal uncertainty be the only reason to not save someone's life. Again, in the chance he's a criminal, let the legal system decide his fate. If you find somebody with a gun a to his head saying "I'm gonna do it!" and you're just like "Okay, good luck with that" you're insane yourself (lack of respect for human life is a sign a of a number of disorders.)

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1273 – 2016-04-24, 02:29:21

Wimp! And uninvolved wuss that you are, I doubt you've ever even bothered to dial 911. Too much effort, ya know…
Have you ever been in a life-or-death situation?
I actually hate it, when people die. But I hate it more when they kill others… (Well, in most circumstances. Smiley has his good points. No?

)
————————————————————————————
Let's set up a scenario (that you and Smiley can play with:)
I need to be killed. If someone comes close, their chances are not good. Who's skill-set would "effectuate" my demise most expeditiously?
It's not complicated, Sang!
You'd rather there not be people like him in the world? Me too. Probably him as well. But there are; and I'd rather some of them be what I'd call "good guys".
It is indeed a terrible thing to take a human life.
Most people can't handle it. That's as it should be.

And most people accept deaths around them cavalierly … Some of us don't.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #1274 – 2016-04-24, 02:35:09

Oh good, we're down to personal attacks against me. Why is that? Because you know I'm right?

Poll

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?