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Topic: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch' (Read 8745 times)

'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Normally one would expect a person with the Pope's responsibilities to be more diplomatic in is pronouncements, but his choice of words today 'Curse my mother, expect a punch' is probably the worse thing he could have said; whether he likes it or not, he justifies the use of violence if someone says something another does not like.

In so doing he goes some way to implying justification for the recent attacks in Paris and the others which may follow.


Maybe Religion, all religions, are at their heart inimical to Free Speech.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #1 –
Quote
''It's normal - you cannot provoke, you cannot insult the faith of others,'' he said.

Well, there's your basic problem: that statement greatly offends my faith. Oh, however will I manage to restrain myself from killing the Pope…  oh wait, I'm not a lunatic. :doh:

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #2 –
Quote from: string on

Normally one would expect a person with the Pope's responsibilities to be more diplomatic in is pronouncements, but his choice of words today 'Curse my mother, expect a punch' is probably the worse thing he could have said; whether he likes it or not, he justifies the use of violence if someone says something another does not like.

Does he?
He also stressed that it isn't allowed to kill in the name of God.

Since we are at it - are insults and racist remarks covered by the freedom of free speach?
Who draws the line?
You may argue that in civilized democracies like the ones we are living, courts will draw the line.
Punching someone in the face because of an insult is a primitive act that only a lunatic is able to do. We don't do such things.  We also gave up torture. All we are practising now are are 'enhanced' methods of interogation, preferable in foreign countries where our laws don't apply.
On the other side, bombing people from safe distance and killing tens of thousands of civilians (Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya, ...), turning entire regions into hell is a heroic act, our civilized societies can be proud of. After all, we don't kill in the name of God but just for geo-strategic interests.

Hypocrisy at its best: "You just don’t invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests"

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #3 –
i guess he got some valid point .

freedom of speech is freedom of speech .

but when using Freedom of speech to  talk some s***t to another people , that is how someone can get some punchs in the  face by the masses .

well , perhaps he just do not good enough at Express that argument.
nor the Media  just Make that as Pro-contra  as possible ,  for rating  purposes .




Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #4 –
Quote from: string on
Maybe Religion, all religions, are at their heart inimical to Free Speech.

Yep. The funny thing is they're against "political correctness" , but demand it for their religion. Further, they don't recognize that becoming so offended if somebody questions their faith is a form of PC. Odd how they think its okay to call LGBT people pedofiles or whatever, but it's not okay to question Jesus's divinity or even how the Bible is translated.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #5 –
Quote from: string on

Normally one would expect a person with the Pope's responsibilities to be more diplomatic in is pronouncements, but his choice of words today 'Curse my mother, expect a punch' is probably the worse thing he could have said; whether he likes it or not, he justifies the use of violence if someone says something another does not like.

Turning the other cheek, I see :right:

Quote from: string on

Maybe Religion, all religions, are at their heart inimical to Free Speech.

Comes with the territory, whenever there's an imaginary friend that can't defend itself in reality but will burn your ass after death.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #6 –
Quote from: string on

Maybe Religion, all religions, are at their heart inimical to Free Speech.

My reaction to all of the pronouncements of religious authorities...
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnTWxpTQt4[/video]

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #7 –
Quote from: string on

In so doing he goes some way to implying justification for the recent attacks in Paris and the others which may follow.

Not at all.
It could be rephrased this way: "offend some lunatics, expect a lunatic reaction".
It doesn't justify the lunatic reaction; it just alerts to what you should expect, after all.

Besides: Religious people have the right to feel offended by someone other's free speech - and to express it by their own free speech. Non-religious people have the right to think the religious ones should not feel offended, and so they can express it by free speech on their turn. Religious people have the right to disagree and to defend their feelings hurt, and so on and so on. Everybody has their free speech granted, as well as the ability to disagree one way ore another.

Edit, after reading the actual article: the statement can be interpreted this way, but I see that the pope has really caught away the right to offend others' faith (hence, free speech). :(

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #8 –
The Pope is an honorary member of that which Salman Rushdie calls the But Brigade.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvgdPAEu8vA[/video]

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jax on

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

There are various reactions to the massacre at the Charlie Hebdo Paris office… The other one that caught my eye -immediately- was this:
Quote
"Killing in response to insult, no matter how gross, must be unequivocally condemned ... But neither should we tolerate the kind of intolerance that provoked this violent reaction. [my underlining] Those who work at (Charlie Hebdo) have a long and disgusting record of going way beyond the mere lampooning of public figures, and this is especially true of their depictions of religious figures. ... What (Muslims) object to is being intentionally insulted over the course of many years. On this aspect, I am in total agreement with them.
(source)


Why is it that Islamists don't see this?
(Or are they actively seeking a civilizational conflict…? :) )


The Catholic church has taken the brunt of Charlie through the years, not Muslims. There has been a Muslim issue every other year or so. Charlie is a weekly.


So the Pope turns the other fist. I could venture a guess on who would crop up in next issue of Charlie "bigger than mass" Hebdo.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #11 –
Quote from: string on
'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

As obvious.

So called "freedom of speech" it's not a right of higher order but conditioned in the first place to other people's rights. Insults aren't "freedom of speech" the same way killing it's not "freedom of action".

The Pope was (not surprisingly) the only lucid voice about what is basically a conflict of rights of different levels.
A matter of attitude.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #12 –
I think not everyone picked up the issue I raised which was that the Pope made it clear that he empathised with the use of violence by those that felt insulted. His remark was basically saying that if you insult religion then what can you expect but violence.

If that is truly the case then perhaps insults are well deserved.

As it happens, some of the cartoons which have allegedly been published (some were said to have been inserted into the folk law by zealots wanting to provoke a reaction) are in my opinion way, way beyond decency and from a  moral viewpoint should not have been published. But people should have the right to insult as well as the right to be offended.

The religious like to claim they are being persecuted and insulted, but in fact the insults have been at a very high level from those of a religious persuasion against those that lack it. Yes and persecution too.

What goes around comes around.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #13 –
Quote from: string on

I think not everyone picked up the issue I raised which was that the Pope made it clear that he empathised with the use of violence by those that felt insulted. His remark was basically saying that if you insult religion then what can you expect but violence.

If that is truly the case then perhaps insults are well deserved.

As it happens, some of the cartoons which have allegedly been published (some were said to have been inserted into the folk law by zealots wanting to provoke a reaction) are in my opinion way, way beyond decency and from a  moral viewpoint should not have been published. But people should have the right to insult as well as the right to be offended.

The religious like to claim they are being persecuted and insulted, but in fact the insults have been at a very high level from those of a religious persuasion against those that lack it. Yes and persecution too.

What goes around comes around.

I think I understand. You are translating the Pope's  "Curse my Mother, expect a punch" as "What goes around comes around".

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #14 –
Quote from: string on

I think not everyone picked up the issue I raised which was that the Pope made it clear that he empathized with the use of violence by those that felt insulted. His remark was basically saying that if you insult religion then what can you expect but violence.
He didn't empathize, he simply stated what one could expect. Correct on your second point, but there's an important difference between sanctioning violence and pointing out what one can expect.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Quote from: string on

I think not everyone picked up the issue I raised which was that the Pope made it clear that he empathized with the use of violence by those that felt insulted. His remark was basically saying that if you insult religion then what can you expect but violence.
He didn't empathize, he simply stated what one could expect. Correct on your second point, but there's an important difference between sanctioning violence and pointing out what one can expect.


A case in point: How many times has the Christian faith, and the Roman Catholic faith in particular, been insulted in one way or another? So----- when is the next Crusade scheduled? I'm sure the Pope must have it marked on his calendar somewhere. No renegade priests demanding that this forum be shut down at once, and that the people responsible for it be punished? No calls for the ----- well, I think you get the picture. Somehow I don't expect to read of nuns storming the offices of the local branch of "The Onion", and killing people. We'll leave that to radical Islam, who seem to have that market cornered at the moment.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #16 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Quote from: string on
Somehow I don't expect to read of nuns storming the offices of the local branch of "The Onion", and killing people. We'll leave that to radical Islam, who seem to have that market cornered at the moment.

"The Onion," my favorite intellectual publication.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-willing-to-give-up-any-of-muslims-rights,37780/

Quote
PITTSBURGH—Explaining how defending the population is the government’s ultimate responsibility, area man Greg Farnsworth told reporters Thursday he is willing to give up any of Muslims’ rights necessary to feel safe. “The bottom line is that we are putting innocent lives at risk if we don’t give the government more power to protect us, and if that means giving up a few constitutionally protected freedoms of Muslims in the process, so be it,” said Farnsworth, who added that, while he didn’t necessarily like the idea of the NSA monitoring phone calls or emails, he believed it was vital to accept a few violations of privacy rights among those of the Islamic faith to ensure the nation remained secure. “If last week’s attacks taught us anything, it’s that al-Qaeda is still determined to kill as many people as they can. So if we have to add more security measures at airports for Muslims or track people online who are critical of the U.S. government, provided they are Muslim, in order to keep us safe, I’m willing to make that sacrifice.” Farnsworth added that, if you really considered the lives and well-being of your family, limiting a few rights for Muslims here and there isn’t a bad trade-off at all.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #17 –
I wonder how long it's gonna take that fellow to figure out that once you open that can of worms, it's not just Muslims that will get tracked and searched and so on. It's you'nme too. Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist--- it's all the same to the government snoops, and you can never tell when a Buddhist monk is gonna go waka-waka  and blow up a quickie-mart.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738
He didn't empathize, he simply stated what one could expect. Correct on your second point, but there's an important difference between sanctioning violence and pointing out what one can expect.


Well I maintain that he did. Maybe he would distinguish between forms of violence - I could believe that- but his words and his actions in saying those words (see the video) illustrated his acceptance that violence was a normal reaction, albeit that he went on to say the fluffy things that we all say. As I remarked he was undiplomatic and had a bad choice of words.

Consider how else he might have phrased that remark ('Curse my mother, expect a punch');

Curse my mother and expect objections

Curse my mother and do not expect favours.

Curse my mother and expect to be ignored.

But no - he used the violent analogy and in so doing drew a link with the fanatics murderous reaction to the insult they perceived.



Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #19 –
Jesus Christ did even better, He kicked out the temple sellers... :)
That's a very interesting and unusual episode regarding Jesus Christ's life that you should think about why it is there in the first place.
Than, everything will turn clear crystal in your mind.
A matter of attitude.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #20 –
Quote from: string on

I think not everyone picked up the issue I raised which was that the Pope made it clear that he empathised with the use of violence by those that felt insulted. His remark was basically saying that if you insult religion then what can you expect but violence.

If that is truly the case then perhaps insults are well deserved.


There is in Norwegian (and I presume UK and US) law the provision that a reaction to insult or injury would not be punishable by law under some conditions. If one sprays another with a water hose and the victim calls him a bloody idiot, neither action would have further consequence. Same with a physical reaction to an insult. If I insulted the Pope's mother, you could give Dr. Gasbarri a punch, with no further legal outcome.

There would have to be a proportionality to it, so a proper reaction to insulting the Pope's mother would not be to take the culprit to the torture cellars of the Vatican Inquisition and tear off his skin inch by inch. There has to be some constraints. If one removes another's eye with a spoon, returning the favour based on Biblical principles would probably end up with both being prosecuted rather than neither. And most of all it has to be an immediate reaction, coming back the next day to  punch Dr. Gasbarri after you have thought it over will not do.

Thus the relevance to Charlie Weekly is nil. Killing a dozen people is wildly disproportional to any harm allegedly done, and outside the realm of drawing, cursing, and punching. Finally Yemenites have claimed this attack has been two years in the planning, so there is no immediacy.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #21 –
Nah, Jax, that's like saying there's no similarity between an Apple and Apple Pie because the one takes longer to prepare. They're both food.

Wondering why there is no support for my viewpoint here, I Googled reaction to pope punch (I'd not Googled the subject before and found that my reaction is not un-typical. There's a relevant article by Piers Morgan
Since when did turning the other cheek turn into punching someone in the face, Pope Francis? And does that mean it's OK to shoot them too?

That's the sort of thinking that results in tit-for-tat policies, like the Israelis and the Palestinians generation-spanning vendettas ... especially when insulting Religions, funny thought they are, is off limits.

But OK, maybe we should all do as SF suggested.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #22 –
Quote from: string on

Quote from: Jimbro3738
He didn't empathize, he simply stated what one could expect. Correct on your second point, but there's an important difference between sanctioning violence and pointing out what one can expect.


Well I maintain that he did. Maybe he would distinguish between forms of violence - I could believe that- but his words and his actions in saying those words (see the video) illustrated his acceptance that violence was a normal reaction, albeit that he went on to say the fluffy things that we all say.

Frankly, sir, we're both guessing.

Violence is as human as apple pie. Accept it or not, it ain't going away, Pope or not.

People with a high public profile should be very circumspect when making pronouncements. It looks as though he wasn't. That said, what's the upshot? Will the world be a better or worse place because of the Pope's comments.

Now, a jihadist mouthing off in France, that might have negative consequences.

I wandered here to post something I picked out of the Fox News nuthouse which sort of fits here.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/foxnewsfacts?src=hash

If you don't know Fox News, it's known by many as a right wing news source. I don't go there.

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #23 –
The very history of the Vatican has been centuries of killing in the name of God so the Islamists are gradually replacing that tradition. Anyway can I say on the general matter of offending someone this is getting hi-jacked nowadays. Obviously in the sphere of violent threats is one thing but the principle of offending is something else. You cannot live in a free society with offending someone in a discussion, argument, parliament, etc. Trouble is that the so-called liberal open mid equally today has been warped from it's past hitory by people misusing the word.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: 'Curse my mother, expect a punch'

Reply #24 –
Straight to the point: what would you expect as a reaction for drawing cartoons about Islam?
The Pope stated the obvious... just that.