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Do you consider Islam a 'Religion of Peace'?

Yes
No
Not Sure -- Let me ponder while enjoying a few dozen ice cold beers & some pork sausage off the barbi!
Topic: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace? (Read 87253 times)



Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #53

No problem at all with Islam, a so peaceful religion as any other.

Is has some advantages over Christianism, mainly at cohesion social aspects and charity. Besides, are the only ones to really understand what luxury is about.

It has however the same problems of Protestantism, literal interpretations of sacred books mixed with absence of centralized, hierarchical organization and authority leading to that anyone can appear speaking and acting in the "name of Allah".


Alternatively, the problem with Islam is that it hasn't had the reformation that helped bring Christianity out of the dark ages.

(And that bit closer to a more sensible secular society)

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #54
Alternatively, the problem with Islam is that it hasn't had the reformation that helped bring Christianity out of the dark ages.

(And that bit closer to a more sensible secular society)

What took Christianity out of the dark ages was the so called renaissance of the year one thousand. Georges Duby, March Bloch and all other medievalists have demonstrate it for ages. A little bit before the "miracles" of reformation...

Reformation, meaning Lutero, Calvino and their followers, was a political/economical movement supported by the bourgeoisie in order to gain power masked under pretense religious divergence. It still is.
It opened the way to the selvage capitalism we assist today that hypocrisy calls liberalism.

Islam can pass very well without it.
A matter of attitude.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #55
Islam also had its brightest times around year one thousand: Avicenna, Ibn Tufayl, Ghazali. Of course over time this renaissance waned, but when Brits and Americans encroached into the area and began colonising, any chance of normalcy was gone for good. Islam survived Mongol and Turk supremacy, but British and American colonisers have a special gift for irreparably screwing up anything they touch.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #56
Information is trickeling in from China, but it's starting to look like Islamist Extremists --- yes, the [glow=black,2,300]Religion of Peace[/glow] is at it once again.

China: Dozens Stabbed To Death After Knife-Wielding Muslims Attack Train Station

CHINA is facing a fresh wave of ethnic violence after a group of black-clad Muslim separatists were blamed for a stabbing spree that killed 29 people at a railway station on Saturday....... continued

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #57

Alternatively, the problem with Islam is that it hasn't had the reformation that helped bring Christianity out of the dark ages.

(And that bit closer to a more sensible secular society)

What took Christianity out of the dark ages was the so called renaissance of the year one thousand. Georges Duby, March Bloch and all other medievalists have demonstrate it for ages. A little bit before the "miracles" of reformation...

Reformation, meaning Lutero, Calvino and their followers, was a political/economical movement supported by the bourgeoisie in order to gain power masked under pretense religious divergence. It still is.
It opened the way to the selvage capitalism we assist today that hypocrisy calls liberalism.

Islam can pass very well without it.


That's an interesting alternative take on history. Whether or not historical data on economic and technological advances support your theory is a little bit open to question.

And whether other little bits of data on development, growth of the middle class and life expectancy support your view is also a little suspect.*

(* Of course they do. Such is the joy of inventing and reinventing documented history! A religious speciality that the Catholic church excelled at. Still do, I hear...)

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #58

Information is trickeling in from China, but it's starting to look like Islamist Extremists


It appears to be Uyghur separatists, some have fingered the Pakistan-based East Turkestan Islamic Movement (also on the US terror list), but that seems to be pure guesswork.

This is a political and ethnic conflict, rather than a religious (of course religion is useful in a conflict as well). Inconveniently there millions of muslims in China, coexisting peacefully, but they don't have any territorial disputes.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #59

Information is trickeling in from China, but it's starting to look like Islamist Extremists --- yes, the [glow=black,2,300]Religion of Peace[/glow] is at it once again.

China: Dozens Stabbed To Death After Knife-Wielding Muslims Attack Train Station

CHINA is facing a fresh wave of ethnic violence after a group of black-clad Muslim separatists were blamed for a stabbing spree that killed 29 people at a railway station on Saturday....... continued


While it has got its facts right this time, The Australian is a Murdoch propaganda sheet that is not highly regarded and is prone to bend the truth.
Not something I would quote without double-checking.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #60
And whether other little bits of data on development, growth of the middle class and life expectancy support your view is also a little suspect.

"Development", "middle class" and "life expectancy" - the trilogy of political correct materialism. Traduced as consumerism, herds and fear of death.
Whatever, I enjoy "suspect" views. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #61

And whether other little bits of data on development, growth of the middle class and life expectancy support your view is also a little suspect.

"Development", "middle class" and "life expectancy" - the trilogy of political correct materialism. Traduced as consumerism, herds and fear of death.
Whatever, I enjoy "suspect" views. :)

Gary also mentioned economic and technological advances, thus making it even clearer that his measure of development only consists of materialist values. Education, sustained peace and social cohesion failed to enter the picture. Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #62
Quote
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

The proof of which comes from where?

Thousands of years ago, people sacrificed their children to the gods. While I can't prove that, I believe it firmly.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #63

Quote
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

The proof of which comes from where?

Thousands of years ago, people sacrificed their children to the gods. While I can't prove that, I believe it firmly.
With your standard of proof, I have plenty of proof: Read a book. Specifically, a book from a thousand years ago. Even more specifically, a book by the authors I mentioned.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #64
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time.

Living life in plenitude.
A matter of attitude.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #65
Living life in plenitude.


Speaking of "Life", the Life Expectancy of people has increased a lot over the centuries. It must have taken an awful lot of religion to achieve that!

;D

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #66
Quote
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

Allow me to back up. "People" is a vague concept. One can cherry pick selected thinkers, the ones who left a trail. How representative are those select thinkers of the general population.

Were Newton and Einstein representative of people in their world? I don't think so. We don't know what common people thought because they left no record.

“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.” - Yogi Berra, a famous American thinker.

PS "The fathers of the church accepted the buying, selling and owning of human beings. So did the popes: Muslim slaves were manning papal galleys until 1800. So did religious orders: Jesuits in colonial Maryland owned slaves, as did nuns in Europe and Latin America."

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #67

Quote
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

Allow me to back up. "People" is a vague concept. One can cherry pick selected thinkers, the ones who left a trail. How representative are those select thinkers of the general population.

Were Newton and Einstein representative of people in their world? I don't think so. We don't know what common people thought because they left no record.

“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.” - Yogi Berra, a famous American thinker.

PS "The fathers of the church accepted the buying, selling and owning of human beings. So did the popes: Muslim slaves were manning papal galleys until 1800. So did religious orders: Jesuits in colonial Maryland owned slaves, as did nuns in Europe and Latin America."



Living life in plenitude.


Speaking of "Life", the Life Expectancy of people has increased a lot over the centuries. It must have taken an awful lot of religion to achieve that!

;D

You are an evil person, and I can prove it. At any rate, discussions of religion are guaranteed to express the Bullshit gene.

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #68

Quote
Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.

Allow me to back up. "People" is a vague concept. One can cherry pick selected thinkers, the ones who left a trail. How representative are those select thinkers of the general population.

People is not a vague concept to me. Open-mindedness is also a very clear concept to me. Cherry-picking is also a clear concept. For example:

Were Newton and Einstein representative of people in their world? I don't think so. We don't know what common people thought because they left no record.

By excluding outstanding examples of people from your concept of people you are cherry-picking. By laying emphasis on "We don't know" and at the same time refusing to listen those who know is the opposite of open-mindedness.

“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.” - Yogi Berra, a famous American thinker.
Also, the tension between theory and practice provides a standard of measure of the theory when you investigate the tension and answer questions like:
- Is it possible to approach the theory in practice or not? Is the ideal of the theory attainable or not?
- When one approaches the ideal of the theory in practice, does it improve the quality of life or not?

PS "The fathers of the church accepted the buying, selling and owning of human beings. So did the popes: Muslim slaves were manning papal galleys until 1800. So did religious orders: Jesuits in colonial Maryland owned slaves, as did nuns in Europe and Latin America."
All your ancestors, religious and irreligious alike, owned slaves. Now, *my* ancestors, religious and irreligious alike, *were* slaves. That's people for you. Anything unclear?

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #69
Quote
All your ancestors, religious and irreligious alike, owned slaves. Now, *my* ancestors, religious and irreligious alike, *were* slaves. That's people for you. Anything unclear?

:Jim leaves the field, tail between legs, vowing to refrain from further posting lest it be discovered that he owns slaves:

Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #70
Speaking of "Life", the Life Expectancy of people has increased a lot over the centuries. It must have taken an awful lot of religion to achieve that!

I see, elder people were unknown before the miracle of the industrial revolution and life expectancy has certainly exploded with the advent of atheism...
A matter of attitude.


Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #72
I am a slave to myself.


Re: ISLAM -- The Religion of Peace?

Reply #74


And whether other little bits of data on development, growth of the middle class and life expectancy support your view is also a little suspect.

"Development", "middle class" and "life expectancy" - the trilogy of political correct materialism. Traduced as consumerism, herds and fear of death.
Whatever, I enjoy "suspect" views. :)

Gary also mentioned economic and technological advances, thus making it even clearer that his measure of development only consists of materialist values. Education, sustained peace and social cohesion failed to enter the picture. Thousand years ago people were more open-minded than they are now, and more structured, with a clear sense of purpose in their lives at the same time. This is an important measure for me at least.


Not true. Education and social cohesion (you can pick other terms too if you wanted) are two of the foundations of society. How do you measure them? Growing middle classes, wealth, technological development etc etc.

Sustained peace? When did that happen? Ever?

People were more open minded a thousand years ago? I guess you could be right How else would Christianity or any other superstition have taken a hold? :)

A clear sense of purpose? I suspect the vast majority of people a thousand years ago has a crystal clear sense of purpose. As you say. Something along the lines of 'try not to die today'. Rich people joined in. 'Try not to die this week'.