Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

Kinf of laughable that comment aout a police nanny Statewhen you think of the gung-ho form of police in the ex-colonies. They don't just try to arrest unarmed people they solve the legal problem by shooting them (not to wound) but kill and using just one bullet is not enough. Now the US police have access to a system that can see through walls based on radar so not satisified with spying on everyone now they have extnded things!  Thank heavens our police do not carry guns except for airports. Give an Amer5ican cop a gun and he is above the law and shoot whom he likes and get away with it. Sounds to me that the way things are going there the Police State gradualist direction is quickening.

Anyway thinking back to the thread and Caliphate stuff now the USA is going to help train and pay helping the Syrian Free Army as a "moderate group." If i was a US taxpayer I would groan at that as some sections of the SFA have had contact with some other groups that are something else. Just think of the times that "rebel" groups have been funded then later the same guns used to shoot and kill US soloders. It is a damnable crying shame that so many young American soldiers are losing their lives especially when arms supplied never always go where intended.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-01-21, 14:58:20

It is a damnable crying shame that so many young American soldiers are losing their lives especially when arms supplied never always go where intended.

What, never always?
Well, hardly ever always.

Quote from: tt92 on 2015-01-22, 08:03:13

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-01-21, 14:58:20

It is a damnable crying shame that so many young American soldiers are losing their lives especially when arms supplied never always go where intended.

What, never always?
Well, hardly ever always.

Pay attention, tt92. It should be "hardly never always!"

Quote from: jax on 2015-02-18, 07:08:51

mass murder, war crimes, sexual slavery, torture, ethnic cleansing, genocide,

Banal, many do it. Using youtube to turn it into Terror, that's their specialty.

If people are not afraid, governments can't keep on doing more freedom restrictive measures. That's ISIS raison d'etre.
I'm afraid Oakdale that your governments is not interested at all in finishing with them, your government, europeans and many others.

As I said, 2030 is being prepared.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2015-02-18, 06:57:29

That means they studied you (the U.S. and the rest). Terror is like everything else, it can be well done or poorly done, they do it well and your fear proofs it.

A civilization afraid of videos is no civilization. Truth is embarrassing.

ISIS didn't study of their own initiative. U.S. govt taught them, and they turned out to be too good students. Just like with the Taliban and Al-Qaida previously, ISIS is yet another creation of the U.S. that became a costly worldwide problem.

Oakdale, have you forgotten the phase in the media when Syrian rebels were supposedly the good guys and everybody had to support them as much as possible? All focus was on bringing down Assad the tyrant. The U.S. brought down Saddam the tyrant and what came of that? Looks like the U.S is specifically calculating for more war, wanton destruction, and everlasting instability.

It's very easy to get rid of ISIS - just let Kurds create their own independent state. With independent Kurdistan at an early stage, say in the 80's, both Saddam and Assad could have been moderated without any need of killing (I'm not so sure they even needed moderation). But independent Kurdistan would obviously moderate Turkey too, so now we have to live with the Caliphate instead.

Nouns are not usually coming in superlative form, but those were nonsenseest statements.

The US neither created, nor inspired ISIL/Da'ish. They have older and better sources of inspiration. At most they have taken advantages of voids, some of which have come as a result of US action. The Assad regime is still responsible for most of the killings in Syria. The US has never supported ISIL nor al-Nusra, but have spent more resources on al-Nusra/AQ for own reasons. AQ is much more likely to make an attack on US soil or against US targets than ISIL is, and considered them the greater threat. They may still do so. Even so the US invested considerable military force and diplomacy to get Sunnis to beat ISIL up, and quite successful they were too.

ISIL is a menace to its surroundings and the territory they've conquered, not to Europe, not to the US. Sure they can be a pest here too, as shown partly in Paris and in Copenhagen when misfits claimed allegiance to ISIL in their police-assisted suicides. But the Kurds, the Yazidi, the Shia, the Assyrians, the differently-minded Sunni, they don't need YouTube to realise what they have on the doorstep. Speaking of which the Kurds, with their newly received airforce and somewhat improved weaponry, can put up a good fight in their home turf, which is a small part of ISIL territory. Outside there they are more hated than ISIL. Saddam Hussein and the Assads have killed Kurds in a quantity  far beyond what ISIL can aspire to, they would if they could, but they can't.

All of which should be in the thread: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood? and not in this, it doesn't have any relevance for 2030.

There are two alternatives. Either ISIL is right, the Islamic doomsday is at hand, this world is over, and Allah will spend the rest of eternity showering us all with boiling water and dressing us in flaming clothes. Or, what I would consider a slightly more likely scenario, as a Caliphate they will be defeated militarily, politically, and religiously long before 2030. You might enjoy this: What Women ISIS Really Wants

The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.

Maqdisi taught Zarqawi, who went to war in Iraq with the older man’s advice in mind. In time, though, Zarqawi surpassed his mentor in fanaticism, and eventually earned his rebuke. At issue was Zarqawi’s penchant for bloody spectacle—and, as a matter of doctrine, his hatred of other Muslims, to the point of excommunicating and killing them. In Islam, the practice of takfir, or excommunication, is theologically perilous. “If a man says to his brother, ‘You are an infidel,’ ” the Prophet said, “then one of them is right.” If the accuser is wrong, he himself has committed apostasy by making a false accusation. The punishment for apostasy is death. And yet Zarqawi heedlessly expanded the range of behavior that could make Muslims infidels.

Maqdisi wrote to his former pupil that he needed to exercise caution and “not issue sweeping proclamations of takfir” or “proclaim people to be apostates because of their sins.” The distinction between apostate and sinner may appear subtle, but it is a key point of contention between al-Qaeda and the Islamic State.

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is starting to show some wear and tear. True, it pulled off the gruesome execution of Jordanian pilot Moaz al-Kasasbeh; true, it has attracted jihadists from across the world; and true, it still holds swaths of Iraq and Syria. But cracks are appearing in the self-styled Caliphate.

One reason is that, starting in the late summer, the U.S. intervention in Iraq helped stall the ISIS advance. Since then, troops have been able to go on the offensive and start expelling the terrorist group from the territory it holds; it has already lost Kobani, the north Syrian border town where much of the violence is centered, and has also suffered significant defeats in Bajyi, Jurf al-Sakhar, Diyala, and the Mosul Dam. In the grand scheme of things, this does not translate into much: Of the 55,000 square kilometres of territory ISIS controls, it has lost only 700—around one percent. But at least the momentum has been checked.

Now, a planned spring offensive, a joint U.S.-Iraqi effort to retake the Sunni capital of Mosul, could be a watershed moment. Iraqi Security Forces, Kurdish Peshmerga troops, and Sunni tribes—backed by U.S. air support and military advisers—will look to end ISIS’ reign in the north and west Iraq, restoring government leadership in local towns and cities.

There are risks in this strategy. ISIS finds it easiest to take over Sunni areas where there is a looming threat of Shia or Pershmerga involvement. To retake Mosul, then, the coalition will have to avoid sending Peshmerga and Shia militias into the fray. The further these forces penetrate the Sunni enclave of Mosul, the likelier they are to push Sunnis into armed resistance.  [...]

These are not the only setbacks that ISIS has suffered recently. According to group spokespeople and media reports, there have been at least two different coup attempts against the ISIS leadership. Back in November, ISIS announced that it had thwarted a plot by a cell of Azerbaijanis who were plotting to kill ISIS members and encourage others to join an anti-ISIS faction. In recent days, details of a coup attempt against ISIS leadership in eastern Syria, led by Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, ISIS’ governor in Raqqa, have emerged. Ansari and dozens of others were killed in response, and some of Ansari’s fellow conspirators are thought to have fled Raqqa.

Furthermore, there seems to be a sense of growing disillusionment among recruits. The level of violence is extraordinarily high, even for a jihadist group. Outside the beheadings and burnings, prisoners are pushed off buildings, crucified, buried alive, and impaled. Female recruits are being coerced into ISIS sex camps and raped. According to one United Nations committee, the group is also torturing, crucifying, and burying children alive.

Meanwhile, foreign fighters, many of whom signed on to fight the Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria, have been pushed into conflict against other armed factions in Syria. Others are given menial tasks such as cleaning weapons and transporting dead bodies from the front line. Those who refuse their duties risk being labelled apostates and killed; and those who try to escape are equally likely to die. According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, over 100 people who wished to leave the ISIS were executed between October and December 2014. This suggests that ISIS is increasingly turning on itself.

Something else that is slowing ISIS down: the group has been forced to govern the land that it currently holds. And it isn’t going well. Wheat production has collapsed and electricity is sporadic. Hospital staff has fled and pharmaceutical supplies are in short supply. Water service was better under Assad and Iraq’s former Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. ISIS may hold territory and enforce law and order, but it is clearly not governing.

ISIS will never be defeated by European nations or the United States because they will never do what is necessary, that is, beat them with ground forces. Unless countries in the area use foot soldiers, ISIS will continue on for a long time.

Foot soldiers might speed up some victories, but would also flag AMERICAN (or whatever) SOLDIERS ON OUR SOIL.

From all I've read, the U.S. has the wherewithal to decimate this incipient Caliphate — to defeat it, on its own terms. (If it can't hold its territory, it is not a Caliphate!) We do not, however, have an administration willing to do so.
And -it seems to me- the local powers are ambivalent. (They may also be incompetent, or ill-prepared. The only exception -that the U.S. would consider: Iran- is also an enemy of the West. Israel is no longer seen as an ally, being committed to its own survival…so, their "help" is necessarily eschewed.) They know they can't fight…

I realize that most Europeans reject the "conflict of civilizations" trope. But does ISIS? Do Europe's increasing Muslim immigrant populations?
The U.S. may be shielded from these considerations beyond 2030… We can wait, without undue trepidation. That is, if we're willing to see chaos once again subsume the Continent…

Needless to say, I don't believe the ideology of the Caliphate will wither and die on its own. If it is not defeated soon, and decisively, it will become a dominant force in the world.

The US is doing reasonably well,

I appreciate your perspective, jax… But the Caliphate is not a new concept: It began with Mohammad and has returned frequently. Since nuclear weapons have been added to the mix, the apocalyptic versions of this ideology/theology have become more worrisome, no?

I appreciate your perspective, jax…

@abu_britani
oh so it's you lot that's got the contract to empty the bins? Get to it then!
#We_Are_Coming_O_Rome

NZ troops to Iraq for Isis fight

Europe will be saved from yet another threat by someone who should be unconcerned. Amazing how the world works.

NZ troops to Iraq for Isis fight

Europe will be saved from yet another threat by someone who should be unconcerned. Amazing how the world works.

• Muhammed's death


• the conquest of Jerusalem


• a plague that will afflict you (and kill you in great numbers) as the plague that afflicts sheep


• the increase of wealth to such an extent that even if one is given one hundred Dinars, he will not be satisfied


• an affliction which no Arab house will escape


• a truce between you and Bani Al-Asfar (i.e. the Byzantines) who will betray you and attack you under eighty objectives. Under each objective will be twelve thousand soldiers

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Medina (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army). which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).  [...]

 
• the increase of wealth to such an extent that even if one is given one hundred Dinars, he will not be satisfied