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Topic: Is there a police psychology problem?? (Read 115366 times)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #351 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
The latest incident where a man ends up badly beaten and no medical treatment for over 40 minutes then is dead makes the whole police question wide open. There is more to being a policeman than a badge, uniform and gun whoever it seems that those 3 things are it in general and stuff anything else. That these things keep continuing illustrates a very deep problem. So in countries where carrying guns is not the norm and officers more fully trained in all different matters is saying something.

I don't understand what you're arguing. What does "makes the whole police question wide open" mean?

What does this mean?
Quote
The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By JAMES SLACK FOR THE DAILY MAIL
UPDATED: 18:14 EST, 2 July 2009
   
View comments
Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz3YaoA3jMx

One thing is clear to me: There are thugs on both sides of the law.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #352 –
Oh for goodness sake jimbro. I said that the police service over there has had these incidents for decades and today what do i see on the news? Your President saying the same thing! Doesn't matter what the 2 giant corporate backed so-called political parties are i power it still happens. Like others here you limp into daft corner just  like them. And now the usual American trait of trying to direct us away from the indepth problem of your police.  Does the UK police go shooting all over the place like yours/ are ours better trained - yep. In a year we probably get about half a dozen incidents in a year where a suspect is shot out of over 60 million. So that ratio should mean about 30 a year in the US but it is in 3 figures every damn month. To try and equate our violence and that of Europe on the scale of America is really something else. Here a policeman armed with a truncheon, handcuffs and a notebook would physically chase a suspect rather than over there where th tendency to shoot someone in the back is standard. not one but several shots for the officer's "protection."

Even intelligent Americans of so-called liberal persuasion slide easily into diverting the issue. Now it is Baltimore that mayhem has descended on and yes again with soldiers on the streets. So before some cracker says otherwise the National Guard IS a military. I dare say letting policemen regularly beat to death, shoot unarmed, break the spin, mount the pavement with a squad car to knock down are all okay. What a problem you have with what passes for police. Even that cop who had to be arrested wouldn't chase the unarmed man instead he fired repeatedly into the culprit's back and would have got away with it. Smashing mobile phones to stop witnessing is an easy direction because officers think they can do what they damn well like. Using the gun is far to acceptable for no good reason. In fact that arrested officer didn't bother himself at all that the man having been shot several times in the back wasn't moving he cared nothing and instead handcuffed him. Immediate medical measurement did NOT follow as in other places. Hey maybe shooting dead is a police way of controlling the 2.4 million in jails?!

That Obama is saying exactly the same thing as i do maybe you should write to the white House and complain but considering the scores shot every month maybe that might be negative.  Violence is one thing but the national record of your police not in remote instances but as regular as anything are so common place there is no defence just attempts to body-swerve rather than admit it. Maybe in hindsight you might want to face Obama's stance....!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #353 –
I subscribe entirely rjhowie's opinion about American police and, specially, American culture.
Four hundred and ninety nine millions of Europeans does the same.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #354 –
We are an evil people.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #355 –
Of course there are sensibles jimbro but too many of your politicians and police are. Says something about the system. Maybe we people in Europe see better looking from outside the cauldron.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #356 –
When were you going to answer the "situation" in Rotherham I asked about…? Eh, RJ?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #357 –
Noted and thanks Belfrager. Now for the drunk stuck in an armchair.

You well fit the unusable description of the brain dead in America Oakdale. What the hell is the comparison between that English town and the despicable happenings in YOUR police all over your country? Always the same try and find something to clutch on to rather than face up to YOU diabolical national problem. Public beatings up in Los Angeles, choked to death in New York, spine broken in Baltimore and incidents from north to south it is nationwide and just about everywhere. I watched an interview of a city councillor in Baltimore who stated that the police are not held in any high regard in his city and that things happening to anyone stuck into a police van are a regular worry.

Your country yaks so much about how great it is, high principles, and a beacon for the world. Oh yeah. Your telephone, pc, etc are not safe, terror groups in the world supported, wars created. Millions inside the place in wide scale poverty in the tens of millions. Police forces continually having incidents of injuring people deliberately, shooting unarmed people, several in the back when a person is running and your own government admits there is a deep problem. But says something about your politicians does it not? After all this police brutality has been standard for decades and longer as Obama has known but you cannot answer the usual charges that make your country look like the World's number one hypocrite with a capital 'H.'

When you cannot deal with the charges you do as is normal here and try to do a dance bu the problem is too deep for you or anyone else to get away with it. Race is another deep issue and too many police over there have a deep seated attitude and lack of professionalisms and nowadays with mobile phone cameras they casn be seen more easily and that niggles them to the point of phone smashing. With a 3-figure monthly problem try and face it and acknowledge that there is something very wrong going on and especially for blacks. You are a gun bonkers nation and that so much of the police servie is gung-ho is hardly surprising so try sticking to the big problem instead of making yourself look stupid.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #358 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
What the hell is the comparison between that English town and the despicable happenings in YOUR police all over your country?
All over your country, police fail to enforce the law and even abet the vilest of crimes — for fear of angering "politically correct" sensibilities regarding race and religion!
I suspect the policy decisions of your country's ruling-class preferred this to scandal; but they got scandal anyway.
How, RJ, does an occasional death by police misconduct here compare with hundreds of child-rapes ignored over long years? In one small town? By both police and political authorities?
You don't like little girls…? (Ask your psychiatrist what that means… As a Scotsman, I'm sure you'll appreciate his answer.)
Hide under your bed! (That's where you'er likely to find the constable you expect to come to your aid: You're the "wrong" color and the "wrong" religion to have real political cover…)

Maybe you should write some of your constitution down, so that others will be constrained to recognize it…

Nah! You're a Quisler -at heart.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #359 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
How, RJ, does an occasional death by police misconduct here compare with hundreds of child-rapes ignored over long years? In one small town? By both police and political authorities?

Besides constantly (not "occasional" as you say), deaths by your police, would you mind to speak about "your" hundreds of child rapes before start accusing the ones that are right showing the American putrefaction?

Course not, America is the land of the Braves and, as we all know, Braves don't child rape, just the old colonizers do.
Try J&B, that's what I drink, that lousy Bourbon of yours is melting your gray cells.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #360 –
Well, Belfrager, I haven't had more than an "occasional" beer in years… :)
But when the authorities have become afraid to mention -let alone punish- crimes, something has gone horribly wrong!
That human depravity is well-distributed across the nations is hardly disputable.* That political and police powers have succumbed in some to puerile and pusillanimous motives is the more reprehensible, I think.
——————————————————————————————
* However, if you read the Ten Measures of Wisdom (quoted on pgs. 188-189 of Graves' King Jesus 81-12459), you might dispute it — on the basis of ancient lore.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #361 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Always the same try and find something to clutch on
to rather than face up to YOU diabolical national problem. Public beatings up in Los Angeles, choked to death in New York,
spine broken in Baltimore and incidents

The police statistics are but an indication of a larger and more complex social problem and our current president certainly understands that, whereas you do not--you merely enjoy bitching at America for some unknown pathological reason.  We look at our great technological advances and wonder how & why our conduct is still so primitively atrocious.  Our technological advances are simply outpacing our ability to socially govern ourselves even on a small scale, much less worldwide.  It seems that until there is a world government where people realize we are all in this together, our species may indeed perish or at least be regressed back into the caves for not having surpassed the uranium barrier. 

Social, economical and educational gaps in this world will have to narrow considerably (through a slow natural evolution),
before we can even modestly begin to proclaim that the human species is at the top of the heap of living organisms on this planet.  We teeter on the brink of self-extinction, how intelligently superior is that to a mongoose? 

You point to problems, then you  scoff, laugh, ridicule and criticize without a single suggestion or hint of a solution yourself.  Is this your lot in life rj, to be an impotent cynic?  You accuse Oakdale of being the armchair quarterback that you are--and Oakdale has better thoughts than you...but then so does a sea slug.  The evolution of all things human, turtles along too slow to get so worked up about any single factor--we have checks and balances at work behind the scene for everything.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #362 –
How well one politics for a position, sadly, isn't synonymous with how qualified they are for the job. I imagine that holds true for most places. Almost silly how much could be fixed there.

The welfare and penal systems have bred career criminals and gang structure. Escalation of police deaths in the 90's led to progressively more forceful measures being allowed. (I remember it was a pretty big deal when a percentage of State Troopers were issued assault rifles here.) Following 9/11 the police were encouraged to militarize pending terrorist attacks. And that's where we are...

If you ask me, regardless of race, anyone dies in police custody it's a Civil Rights violation. State sovereignty is the reason the Federal Gov doesn't jump in every time asap. They can easily hop in too soon, everything go wrong and undermine its authority with the other States in future issues.       

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #363 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
That human depravity is well-distributed across the nations is hardly disputable.* That political and police powers have succumbed in some to puerile and pusillanimous motives is the more reprehensible, I think.

Yes, I agree. Symptoms of a world where no one knows anymore where the real centers of decisions are and we just have access to the clown puppets that govern us all.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #364 –
Wha'?  Conspiracy theories or do you wanna know alllllll the details?  Neither is a practical thought.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #365 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on
Conspiracy theories or do you wanna know alllllll the details?

jseaton, you clearly aren't up to date with the main advanced political science concerns about sovereignty, representativity and state's autonomy in general.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #366 –
:) Perhaps, Belfrager, you'd be good enough to list some few of these…?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #367 –
Why should I require to offer a solution jseaton2311 or anyone else over there? It is your country your very obvious vast, deep  and very long nightmare. It is easy to say i scoff but don't add that claim to the others. It has been a deep rooted part of the police culture and it does say something about training and indeed the equally deep racialism involved. There is also something else to be concerned about and that is the 'training' they get. It is not the same everywhere ensb either and that this problem continues indicates either a weakness in what is taught or they don't bother themselves.  and do what they like. On Saturday night on the news yet another example of the police there thinking they can do what they damn well like. An officer badly handling a man then noticed he was being filmed on a phone so stopped for a monet and hastened to the camera to block it just as as happened before.

This police action has been so much part of the society and most just didn't take much notice or bother themselves very much. Race does come into it and white people even if they do not realise it (or some anyway) have been used to being special left this police deficit alone as by and large it didn't trouble them personally being in a privileged position. So thins long term situation became a part of police thinking and actions knowing that as most folk beaten or killed were black meant that was that. After all the vast majority of the jailed in that 2.4 million are black. The vast majority of poor areas tend to be, well black so it is all part of the routine.

When people are in privileged positions such as white folk many have just accepted the stance without thinking of it in reality whilst the police violence has been a routine as the sun rising. Now many white people with the modern value of mobile phones are if using their grey cells correctly have realised how bad things are. Now there is government talk about allocating money for cameras to be worn on policemen if forces "want it." Something is overdue because it has been tolerated not for a few years but goes right back to early days. It is sad and with increasingly militarising the problem gets worse and been self created so it is up to you to do something about the mess you have not me. You folk live with it.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #368 –
Quote from: ensbb3 on
The welfare and penal systems have bred career criminals and gang structure. Escalation of police deaths in the 90's led to progressively more forceful measures being allowed. (I remember it was a pretty big deal when a percentage of State Troopers were issued assault rifles here.) Following 9/11 the police were encouraged to militarize pending terrorist attacks. And that's where we are...


Now we are getting to actual hypotheses. What were wrong with the welfare and penal systems? Too little welfare, too much, wrong type? Too much punishment, too little, too slow, wrong type?

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #369 –
Quote from: jax on
What were wrong with the welfare and penal systems?

American culture, that's what went wrong.
Welfare seen from an egoistic perspective that rejects solidarity as an evil thing and a penal system that has pleasure in killing, hurting and humiliating people.
What were people expecting from such a "culture"...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #370 –
Well I think I was getting near an important and deep factor jax.

Racism is not always in the face and many generations there have grown up naturally on the white side thinking they wre fine. Some experts have even found that there were black people who grew up thinking whites were natural leaders and influencers. So for many in the white side they have been part of a long generational thing that can be stretched right back to it's starting at the revolution. All those fine, comfortable white leaders laying down a basic law that only whites could be citizens and rights. Indians and black people. Nothing and it took off gradually from there. So many otherwise quite decent whites became part of a system and without much direct thought just went along with it.  This laid down a basis that was eventually now in modern times to haunt the country.

As time went on the "lesser" people become resident in an apartheid system and their areas simply declined and little help or encouragement give. There are many still living today who will have seen the terrible incidents into the 1960's and 70's. Separated schools, buses, seats and much else. Not all police but too many became the uniformed from of the racism and the long detriment towards negoes became part of their culture too. Even during word War 2 the military having to seperate white and blacks in uniform whilst fighting Nazi racists in Germany?? For so long the white race got by and the black man had little opportunity to do anything in a country where the Constitution was treated like a Bible. In the prsent Baltimore matter Obama made great emphasise on the thugs and criminals but when people had previously protested innocently that was not so in the face was it?

What perhaps is needed is for people of a pale complexion is to realise that this has been so much part of life since the early days and should also ask themselves why jails are full of some many black faces, why their neighbourhoods are in the front line of poverty, unemployment and crime. The principled might find this a difficult one but it too long overdue. Instead these things I mention have not been a priority and they should have been a long dam time ago. As for the police service there is a deep flaw and the training is not as wide or proper training. Time after time no first aid after dealing with someone in their own way and that doesn't happen in other countries. Too inclined to shoot unarmed and anyway they are black so the bottom of the pile. The other night I watched a policeman who had wrestled a man to the ground to handcuff him then simply kick him until he faced round to face the officer. It is too quick an option to baton someone into submission, shoot him or strangle him to death or even break a spine.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #371 –
Quote from: jax on

Quote from: ensbb3 on
The welfare and penal systems have bred career criminals and gang structure. Escalation of police deaths in the 90's led to progressively more forceful measures being allowed. (I remember it was a pretty big deal when a percentage of State Troopers were issued assault rifles here.) Following 9/11 the police were encouraged to militarize pending terrorist attacks. And that's where we are...


Now we are getting to actual hypotheses. What were wrong with the welfare and penal systems? Too little welfare, too much, wrong type? Too much punishment, too little, too slow, wrong type?


Dependency is an attitude that can be cultivated. It's a twisted little loop that raises children in hostile situations.

As long as the mother is on welfare the Government will provide for the children (food stamps and child support). However, they go after the father for the child support. Anytime he gets a job his check is split and if they can't pay they go to jail. It can be seen as advantageous not to get a real job on the books thus pushing them to the point it's jail time anyway, so meh.

Due to poor educational incentive they are left few choices in their minds. A system of people using people without a good decision in sight. Now you've got a "brotherhood" of guys shafted by "the system", trifling women, probably drug addicted and pissed off railroaded into a system with seemingly no way out. Even though there are ways out the ingrained feelings and mistrust can keep people from taking them. Rehabilitation for behavior, drugs and economic concerns should be standard practice but exist in a poorly underdeveloped underused state. Aka Psychology issues, or in that case criminal psychology which has a direct affect on police psychology. Now add in underfunded police departments across the nation with no effective support for the very real psychological concerns of their officers on the job.

Quote from: rjhowie on

Well I think I was getting near an important and deep factor jax.

Not likely.

Racism is a superficial issue. To try and simplify it to that is just being slow.

     

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #372 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
You folk live with it.
You folk die with it…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #373 –
Race is superficial, but racism can be pretty structural in maintaining dysfunctionality, as can other markers like religion, language, or caste. An example could be Roma (gypsies) that do fairly well in North America, but are a despised underclass in most countries in Europe, including by new immigrants. Jews seems to have been living more trouble-free in East Asia, where nobody cared about who killed Jesus.

Racism matters, but maybe not for this topic. The victims seem disproportionately poor, young(ish), male, and black. But are they more vulnerable than the poor, youngish, male, and white/non-black? Is there any difference between black and non-black police officers (the former presumably more liable to look at black victims as people rather than target practice)?

You mentioned three factors, welfare, penal system, and violence against (danger to) police officers.  There are probably posited dozens of others, more or less well founded. Rampant gun culture (there should be a thread about that), poverty, inequality, urbanity, racial inferiority, police education, community education, social isolation, victims were asking for it, police is inclined to answer with it, too little community policing, too much community policing, drugs, gay marriage, high crime rate, low crime rate, too much God, too little God, there is no such phenomena, it is made up by the media/troublemakers, the US has a large population (third after China and India).

The last ones are probably a good start if we want to make sure it is a real phenomena we're discussing. Are there more people killed by police per capita (population, police, criminals) than in other countries. Are there more today than earlier? Crime has fallen nation-wide, it would be reasonable that killed-by-cop should be as well.

To your three, there are countries with significantly more extensive welfare systems (here in Sweden would be one), there are also countries with no significant welfare systems. Likewise there is a great range in penal systems and in the prevalence of violence against police officers. A system from one place cannot straightforwardly be transplanted into another place, but there is a worldful of experience, as far back as records go.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #374 –
Naturally I had only scratched the surface. (:troll:)

Quote from: jax on
The last ones are probably a good start if we want to make sure it is a real phenomena we're discussing. Are there more people killed by police per capita (population, police, criminals) than in other countries. Are there more today than earlier? Crime has fallen nation-wide, it would be reasonable that killed-by-cop should be as well.

We may need a map...

Perhaps it would also help to outline some of the actual stresses on police.
Quote
Police stress arises from several features of police work. Alterations in body rhythms from monthly shift rotation, for example, reduce productivity. The change from a day to a swing, or graveyard, shift not only requires biological adjustment but also complicates officers’ personal lives. Role conflicts between the job—serving the public, enforcing the law, and upholding ethical standards—and personal responsibilities as spouse, parent, and friend act as stressors. Other stressors in police work include:
• Threats to officers’ health and safety (see Figure 8.4).
• Boredom, alternating with the need for sudden alertness and mobilized energy.
• Responsibility for protecting the lives of others.
• Continual exposure to people in pain or distress.
• The need to control emotions even when provoked.
• The presence of a gun, even during off-duty hours.
• The fragmented nature of police work, with only rare opportunities to follow cases to conclusion or even to obtain feedback or follow-up information.47
Source.