Is there a police psychology problem??

Topic: Is there a police psychology problem?? (Read 112461 times)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #100 – 2014-08-23, 21:16:27

Despite the appearance, this is really about American psychology to most of the agitators.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #101 – 2014-08-24, 00:05:19

Sorry Sanguinemoon but I find it difficult to go along with that thinking but what jseaton2311 comes up with puts you in the shade this time!

Anyway, it is almost a grudge that the 2 cops facing the man with the knife were not being assaulted at the time nor was he going near them. His move should have been to drop the damn knife the way the police in America act. Instead 2 policemen shoot 9 bullets into him rather than arrest a felon? Even though the body was motionless they still went through with handcuffing the man. As for the main character I mentioned to Sanguinemoon and who hadn't been know to the officer re the shop matter should be shot 6 times for what happened during the confrontation?

jseaton2311 waffles on with liberal minded mayhem on what may have occurred between the man and the officer. We know the cop had a bruise and he comes out with this wandering stuff about possible happenings. Let us accept that during a struggle (we don't know who started that do we?!) and the cop got a bruise but still shoots the unarmed man time after time. There is a very, very good reason why that cop did that and the other two mental cops did the shooting of the man with the knife. It is a basic, fundamental and routine matter known to all. That is that every week several people are gunned down or beaten to death by policemen because the cops know they will get away with it. In virtually every case it is a white officer shooting a black to death. And you know what? there are so many of these cops get away with it time after time so they do not have to worry. Indeed when an officer gets arrested or ends in jail it is such a small statistic it is hardly noticeable.

Unfortunately the police thinks they are above the law time after time and must make intelligent people a bit concerned there is so much of it. If people here are going to try and find excuses then the place is a hell of a lot worse than we think. Now the Prescient is going to "look at" the near half a billion given annually to police forces including small towns! and the way the press has been treated is unbelievable in a democracy. Threatening, arresting them that even the President had to make a public statement about it. Don't move fast enough and you get threatened with guns or sworn at. Want to speak to them or film matters and the same reaction. Now on the Internet policemen have appeared saying not enough were shot and using racist stuff to boot. There is a deep psychological problem in the police who have immorally misused the idea of serve and protect for their own damnable attitude and practices. These are all signs of a slow move to police State tactics and all sensible citizens should be ringing alarm bells because what the cops are doing is just the same as in a dictatorship.

Regarding that man shot 6 times you could make it a wager in a betting shop as to what may happen in October. Why it needs that long in the circumstances is another load of baloney. I bet dictatorships across the globe are smiling in satisfaction as to what purports to be a proper police force in a nation that is a democracy.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #102 – 2014-08-24, 03:07:02

There's an interesting paper (that let's me applaud the Obama/Holder Justice Dept. — yeah, I know!) which deserves wider dissemination: Police Officer Body-Worn Cameras, Assessing the Evidence…
(This is one of the few times you'll see me posting a link to a paper — before I've read it in its entirety! The subject is too important to ignore purported scholarly work, on presumption. I have little respect for the Holder style of lawyering. But I have no reason -other than that- to question this article and its conclusions, nor the motivation of its authors.)

Does this presage the Big Brother scenario?

Sure! But Pandora's Box cannot be re-stuffed, and closed — let alone, locked! We'll have to learn to live with it…
So, it's a good thing!

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #103 – 2014-08-24, 21:00:12

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-24, 00:05:19

jseaton2311 waffles on with liberal minded mayhem on what may have occurred between the man and the officer.

The sudden and violent death of any teenager is a tragedy and warrants a thorough investigation into exactly what happened. The officer in this case however, is not even being allowed a temporary benefit of the doubt, much less his constitutional right to being innocent until proven otherwise by a jury of his peers in a US court of law (not by 'armchair quarterbacks' who only play soccer).

The facts keep changing and I bought the preliminary report of a fractured eye socket, which may in fact, be false. Exactly how badly the officer was beaten may not fully come out until trial, if indeed a trial is deemed necessary. I imagine that there will be a trial though, if for no other reason than to keep Ferguson from immediately burning down to the ground.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #104 – 2014-08-24, 21:19:42

I watched a retired Philadelphian police captain (wearing his uniform in front of the camera) being interviewed at police actions in Ferguson and he tore them to shreds.

There is no way Americans should accept the present situation of the self-aggrandisement of their police, their too willingness to beat up and to kill when they don't require to. Nine times out of 10 it is a black getting done in by a white cop and it is right across the nation this is going on, week by week, month by month and no sign of a change. The in your face attitude in Ferguson as I indicated with cursing and threatening to "kill you" and the militarisation of forces does not vogue well for the future. It has become too easy to gun down, beat to death or like in New York with a squad of them led by one strangling (illegally of course) a black man. Surprise, surprise. In the vast majority of cases no decisive action is taken against the police so of course they think they can do what they like and say they are policing the law. If sensible people over there believe that nonsense then there is a very deep and very fundamental problem that shows a very bad picture of life there.

For people to make excuses for the 2 shocking killings in Ferguson only belies that direction and far too gung ho. The police are very much not judge and jury but for too long have been getting away with this and on a secondary basis shows that the racist card is very deeply embedded. When the Head of State of a nation has to (almost apologetic in his style) publicly say that there have been over the top matters just think what that says to the rest of the world. Brining in the Army was another over the top thing too and the things that police are getting away with are like the police in a dictatorship State not one that is emphasising principles opposed to such.

My run in with an officer from the NYPD on one of my visits over the pond was mild but in general something more worrying is going on in general practice. If black folk want to be safe I would suggest they go out with a white friend in case they meet police.........

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #105 – 2014-08-24, 21:20:24

Quote from: jseaton2311 on 2014-08-25, 09:00:12

.......I imagine that there will be a trial though, if for no other reason than to keep Ferguson from immediately burning down to the ground.

Well, it would be a perfect world if everyone kept an open mind, but alas there are quite a few closed ones pertaining to this matter.

A trial, I think will happen, but for the benifit of those with open minds to absorb & appreciate the procedures needed to scratch at the facts, & come to a legal outcome one way or another.

It's that outcome that may just, based on your scenario, may just be a 'finger in the dike' measure, & in the long run the undercurrents of ignorance, I imagine, will swell to the dikes unavoidable undoing.

Innocent = More riots, looting, & mayhem.

~~ or ~~

Guilty = Less riots, looting, & mayhem.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #106 – 2014-08-24, 22:08:30

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-15, 23:42:20

Involved in a confrontation between the officer and the man (black as the norm) the man knelt down and raised his hands asking not to be shot.

This is rabble-rousing pure and simple. This is the type of reckless emotionalism that, by itself, agitates people to loot, burn down businesses and even get innocent people hurt or killed. What you say is completely unsubstantiated as there are now conflicting reports even from the black community. It would seem that the media has gone completely mad in their on-again, off-again reporting about this situation. You were not an on-scene-eyewitness to this incident and the media has lost its credibility to believe anything else it has to say on this matter, you have nothing of substance to offer on this. Relax and watch some soccer--it always puts me to sleep.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #107 – 2014-08-25, 00:13:55

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-08-24, 21:20:24

A trial, I think will happen, but for the benifit of those with open minds to absorb & appreciate the procedures needed to scratch at the facts, & come to a legal outcome one way or another.

The outcome may not be to the liking of the black community if the discharge of the officer's weapon is legally construed to be assault with a deadly weapon. Pink, green or purple polka dotted, one can expect to get shot for that.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #108 – 2014-08-25, 01:36:20

Nothing to offer?? What an arrogant and self-satisfying smugness is that nonsense. The second video of the 2 policemen (note two) shooting the man with the knife who at that point was not attacking them) required both to fire 9 bullets into him? Your mindset over there is typical of the mindset that with a would=be intelligent summation that is as ridiculous as the comments themselves. Equally the other aloofness on the colour is typical of too many. Considering the people who usually get gunned down or beaten to a pulp by what you think is a reasonable police force being normally black all the more reason for my advice to take a white man with you for safety.

Fergus is NOT an isolated incident and neither was the furore at LA.These are happening every week somewhere in the wonderful land for the world to see as a beacon (groan). As more and more of your force is ready to very quickly adopt military patterns and weaponry with an over the top response it is showing the rest of the world two choices. (1) You are a temperamental and easily excited lot. (2) The place is that bad it needs to become more of a police state and use the army as well. If the officer in the first incident is charged and found guilty (holding my breath on that one) it will be unique. Secondly the two other cops who shot the second man 9 times should also be arrested.

You are far too prone to beat people up or shoot them rather than arrest them. This is followed by fairy tales on the law and it's administration. Considering officers do not care a damn about gunning people and curse and swear along with sticking heavy weaponry in the face of the media and as I said telling them they would get f----- well killed says even more about your problem. All the waffle we get here justifying such police behaviour is a disgrace and I dare say there are countless Americans who wonder what is happening to their nation the way the police are acting like loose cannons. It is becoming the standard to shoot someone if you don't have enough cops to beat the man up so your PR in the world is a disaster but it is self-created. Don't whine at me know-it-all as you have a giant problem with what passes for far TOO many animals passing at policemen. The SS or the old USSR secret police would have loved the people you have spread right across the place. The people I feel sorry for are the decent cops the majority of the population who will be shaking their heads and if you are black in the land of the free and home of the brave bunk.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #109 – 2014-08-25, 02:00:26

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-08-24, 03:07:02

There's an interesting paper (that let's me applaud the Obama/Holder Justice Dept. — yeah, I know!) which deserves wider dissemination: Police Officer Body-Worn Cameras, Assessing the Evidence…

From the paper:

Quote

Farrar (2013) reported two findings that seek to tie the use of force reduction to the body-worn cameras: 1.First, “shifts without cameras experienced twice as many incidents of use of force as shifts with cameras” (.2.Second, a qualitative review of all use of force incidents determined that officers without cameras were more likely to use force without having been physically threatened. This occurred in five of the 17 use of force incidents involving officers without cameras

The thrust of this article is about the diametrically opposing eyewitness accounts, with some claiming Brown attacked the officer and others claiming Brown was attempting to surrender when he was shot. Freshman psychology and sociology will tell you eyewitnesses are not reliable. Anyway, the article supplies a graph of this data.

I'm noting the readiness of the community to convict Officer Wilson in their minds. Whether or not the shooting was justified in this incidence or not, perhaps the reaction of the community has a basis in officers using excessive force when it's not required. Wilson's injuries give strong credence to the accounts of Brown attacking him, and even the possibility the Wilson shot Brown save his own life. But as I said, as tragic as the shooting may be, there was bigger issues at play. Note that in the LA Times article, "Josie", who reports that Brown indeed charged Wilson declined to give her last name. Perhaps she fears retaliation from community members.

From the paper Oakdale offiers:

Quote

State law bars audio recording of private conversations without the consent of all directly involved. Unauthorized recording exposes police to potential civil suits. State law does allow an exception for dashboard-mounted cameras in police cars but not body cameras on police officers.... The city law department has informed the police department that “it would be unwise to implement a body camera program without first obtaining a legislative exception to the Washington Privacy Act.” (Rosenberg 2011)

Yes, but cameras are ubiquitous. Not only in shops and stores, but on certain intersection and traffic lights. If I run the redlight on say, Tropicana and and Koval (near the MGM Grand on the Strip), even if I don't cause an accident (very likely), I can expect a ticket in the mail. Why can't I sue? It's the same principle. A government agency uses a camera to catch my illegal behavior and punishes me accordingly, a cop's bodycam catches me resisting arrest and I get punished accordingly for that in another incident. Right, audio conversation. What's so precious about my words and not images of what I'm doing? It seems to me that privacy laws haven't kept up with technology.

Interesting about police privacy concerns:

Quote

In May 2012, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department announced that it planned to pilot test body-worn cameras. The Las Vegas Police Protective Association, a police union, responded by threatening to file suit against the department because the cameras represented a “clear change in working conditions” that would have to be negotiated through the union contract (Schoenmann 2012). The NYPD union has made similar claims (Celona 2013)

Interesting for being local to me, but also the union for force notorious for shooting first and asking questions later to sue over privacy concerns. Perhaps the union knows some of its members will be caught using excessive force? (I can't help but reminded again of a complaint Smileyfaze made in another thread about a citizen with a gun in seat being arrested. His complaint was laughable because odds are good that man wouldn't have survived the incident around here...)

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #110 – 2014-08-25, 21:54:59

it's not just cameras you need over there it is jailing what passes for policemen.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #111 – 2014-08-26, 15:21:21

Cato has some words to share: You’re Eight Times More Likely to be Killed by a Police Officer than a Terrorist

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #112 – 2014-08-26, 18:33:36

Not surprised at that news. Pointless giving them a baton or taser.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #113 – 2014-08-26, 21:47:49

@jax: The author of the Cato essay says "The point of the quote is to focus people on sources of mortality society-wide, because this focus can guide public policy efforts at reducing death. (Thus, the number is not a product of the base rate fallacy.)"
First, I'd disagree that the base rate fallacy is obviated by this reasoning. In fact, I'd argue that he's committing what I'd call the Progressive's fallacy: Action at the highest level of government (i.e., as far-removed from pertinent circumstances as practicable) is always preferable!

A fairly common example (in miniature...) is that of school-wide so-called Zero Tolerance policies on drugs or violence here in the U.S. that forbid aspirin tablets or "hand guns" (you know: thumb up, pinkie and ring fingers folded into the palm, and the index and middle fingers pointing? Should a child also say "Bang! Bang!" there's a possibility of the local SWAT team being called out to deal with the situation...)
Part of the "problem" with any example of the Progressive's fallacy is the complacency with which it encourages a lack of individual responsibility -- as if such will have no consequences, intended or not.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #114 – 2014-08-27, 00:29:49

Interesting contribution but the police are still kill mad and get away with it.........

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #115 – 2014-08-27, 08:39:28

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-08-26, 21:47:49

Zero Tolerance

Zero tolerance policies have this tendency to go bad. I'm surprised that any intelligent person anywhere still uses them. You complain about incidents about overly harsh penalties for a fingergun. It gets better. I tutored in a high school where a girl was expelled for bubblegum. It's not even about guns, per say. It's about policies put down by out of touch bureaucrats that have "zero tolerance" for individual judgement.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #116 – 2014-08-27, 20:35:21

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-08-27, 00:39:28

It's about policies put down by out of touch bureaucrats that have "zero tolerance" for individual judgement.

Agreed!

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #117 – 2014-08-28, 23:07:20

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-27, 00:29:49

Interesting contribution but the police are still kill mad and get away with it.........

They don't get away with it at all rjh--they are paying in blood. In 2011 the police killed about 400 people while people during that same year, killed 171 police officers. By comparison, the police are getting massacred. I'm not using this as any kind of justification, of course, just a cold hard fact. However, it would seem as though you are thinking the police deserve to be killed in return.

No one wishes to point to the fact that an Hispanic/Caucasian/Asian teen who brutally assaulted a police officer, grappled for his gun, causing it to go off and for him to be shot as he fled the scene, would receive anything but second page news--that teen would just be another dumb young punk who played with fire and got killed doing so. Again, this is irrelevant to the case at hand, but we all know that the media will sensationalize anything and to anywhere if it means making $$$.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #118 – 2014-08-28, 23:53:28

Quote from: jseaton2311 on 2014-08-28, 15:07:20

we all know that the media will sensationalize anything and to anywhere if it means making $$$.

Sir: Don't even pretend to be that naive!

I'll give you a very different example of "media motivation"… Read and ponder, then get back to me. The facile $$$ explanation is perfectly in accord with such aims!
But, as usual, there's more to the story: An interesting article.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #119 – 2014-08-29, 04:00:04

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-08-27, 03:39:28

It's about policies put down by out of touch bureaucrats that have "zero tolerance" for individual judgement.

I couldn't agree more in the context you provide.

But individual judgement in adult life is subject to society's rules. Rules that can change. Taking to the streets is a last resort and no one has even made a first move in the right direction yet. Change isn't instant of course. But how many people that have an opinion on any of this are voters and if so understand how to operate change in the system? Not only are the rioters not paying taxes but most voters don't either. If they are white voters most are on social security, if black voters most are on welfare or social security. How many of those opinions can be dismissed or pacified when substituted with a nonsolution?

My point is the system works and people do have power. What does it say when most citizens aren't voters or much less understand the way to act in the system? You don't have to be an activist in a system where most of the people take their say. Politics will change just because more opinions in voters means you might actually wanna know what you're talking about. And more people knowing how to pressure the system will eliminate failures as they happen. Until then the system exists as it does by reason. If your own ignorance gets you shot when you just thought you'd earn a little street cred it's not the cops fault, it's yours. If some other law gets you and you think the system screwed you. It's your fault too. Either you need to accept society's laws and learn them or you did nothing to change an obviously flawed law.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #120 – 2014-08-29, 18:47:26

I am afraid jseaton2311 you are a wee bot bordering on the side step there. I am talking about policemen who instead of arresting an unarmed man maybe even using a baton if needed or a damn taser immediately go for the gun and shoot the man dead! That is bad enough but in your thinking 6 bullets is fine (or 9 bullets if 2 are cops are deciding to end your life). So do try and keep to the main point of unarmed people being gunned down by police. That is happening EVERY week so a highly dubious matter is going on. And in most of such ridiculous situations the police tend to get off with it so the macho minds in unform think they can do what they like.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #121 – 2014-08-29, 20:20:26

So, I read RJH's posts and you would think, from them, that the police around here do little else all day every day except shoot everything that moves. Just ain't so, McGee. The police shootings that make it into the news do so precisely because it DOESN'T happen all the time.

Around my neck of the woods, every major department has some sort of "internal affairs" division that investigates every instance where an officer's gun is discharged in the line of duty. If a death resulted, the officer is put on leave while the instance is investigated. It just doesn't happen that often anyway, even in the relatively high crime neighborhoods. It does happen way more than it should-- but still, if I get pulled over by a cop I'm not worried about getting shot. It won't make me want to invite my friends to celebrate-- but still I won't be shot.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #122 – 2014-08-30, 02:00:45

Another case, and another important aspect to be considered (presented by Eugene Volokh). (Yes, I'm glad Kozinski is on the 9th Circuit!) The difference between assumption and presumption shouldn't be blurred: The trial court's summary judgment was predicated on the former...
Such findings are the job of a jury.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #123 – 2014-08-30, 02:10:40

I didn't indicate from the start mjsmsprt40 that the whole police were culprits however I would remind that the situation is that just about every week there is a repeat of the police violence or killing similar to Fergus. here on the forum we get gobblygook about law, legals stuff and sidestepping. I watched an interesting programme recently on the regular over the top actions by police and it is a concern that the re are those who think because who they are they are special and will be able to avoid serious action.

On one of my two visits to the ex-colonies apart from the cheeky NYPD officer I came across twice in 3 days (!) - amazing that (!), I chatted to a sergeant who asked me if it was true that my police just went about regular duty with a notebook and a baton. On confirming that he smiled and shook his head with a degree of wonderment.

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??

Reply #124 – 2014-08-30, 22:55:03

You pretend every bad thing tv shows you is an epidemic but seem to of had no trouble on your random trip encountering random people.

Bet you had enough sense to avoid inner-city communities. Too often these things happen because they have no choice and eventually questionable events will happen. We don't live in Utopia yet, and it's gonna cost lives to get there. It'd be nice if such events got more than finger pointing from morons that don't know how or why. It's not sidestepping to go around these people to address the actual issue. In fact it's needed. You have to go around the ignorance and make people see the problem before a solution can be found. Morons watching their TV hoping someone fixes it hasn't got any positive results yet... Actually, it's part of the problem.