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Topic: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?  (Read 17944 times)

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?

Reply #75
In the pictures in this article you can compare Hamas rockets with Israel's Iron Dome.

Hamas' artillery rockets are basic in design, based on Soviet-era technology...

The situation is this: Israel every once in a while wipes out not only the military arsenal of Palestinians, but also basic tools and means of sustenance. Remember that Palestinians are under complete blockade. Palestinians have only what Israel has permitted them to have. The rockets that reach Israel are allowed through so "self-defence" with helicopters and fighter jets can start. Palestinians do not have any air force or support from outside world, such as from Egypt or Jordan, at all. Israel is not facing an equal army, but cornered inmates of a refugee camp.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?

Reply #76
Three aging kings of their sand castles. Likud keeps control over Israel, Fatah over the West Bank, Hamas over Gaza. Likud has been a little wobbly, but this little gambit might straighten them up for a while. They all know it is as good as it gets. None of them should be there, none of them have much prospects, or remaining friends. All they have is the fear of losing what they got.

Iraq is in ruins, Syria is in ruins, Lebanon is in ruins. Netanyahu was there. A prosperous Palestine is not in his cards.

Benjamin Netanyahu's not-so-prescient 2002 message to Congress about Iraq

He is just one malignant force among many, a Milošević of the Middle East continuing the work of Amir, but few have personally so many lost lives on their conscience as Netanyahu. Israel played their part, but the inadequacies of the PLO also helped propel Hamas to power.

Gaza has been a slum for generations, but by location few cities have a better location than they do at the Eastern Mediterranean by the Suez Canal. With the airport bombed by Israel, the coast blockaded, borders walled, ruled by Hamas, businesses chronically interrupted, few cities have worse prospects.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?

Reply #77
I discovered Travelingisrael some five years ago or so. I appreciate a good professional tour guide. I have passed some of the same training and done plenty of tour guiding informally. Most of what I know about the attitudes and culture in Israel I know from the videos of Travelingisrael.

Anyway, on topic: Travelingisrael is an outright Zionist. He considers his positions "centrist", positions such as that there was no such thing as Palestinian people in the first half of the 20th century, so the land was up for grabs, and of course Jews/Israelis have a historical+moral+divine priority to it over everybody else. Plus Israel has committed no atrocities that would not be overshadowed by atrocities against the Jewish people.

This being a debate forum, feel free to debate.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?

Reply #78
Travelingisrael hits back against Lonerbox.

He makes a compelling case about the nature of the attack on the first Arab village by Israel in 1948. However, Nakba is not just about the first village. It is about Israel's policy of expulsion of Arab population. There is no way to deny that that was (and is) the policy.

In 1947/8, borders were assigned for Israel. People either recognise those borders or not. Arabs did not. And also Israel immediately overstepped those borders in every direction, so de facto Israel does not recognise those borders either. Thus Israel by its own measure is no better than Arabs.

For Travelingisrael (and other Zionists) Israel's behaviour is no different from the way other nation states emerged after WWII at the dissolution of European empires. The sad thing is that European empires were colonial, and even after formal dissolution or reform still retain colonial behaviour and colonial instincts to this day. You can choose to do either the right thing or follow the example of Western colonial hypocrites. Looking at Israel's behaviour — Palestinian territories either blockaded or occupied and burdened with Jewish kibbutz-colonies; Golan Heights occupied and the southern portions of Lebanon and Syria under periodic terror attacks because of it; policy of expulsion of original population in constant swing since 1948 — Israel has consistently refrained from doing the right thing.