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Topic: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine (Read 36824 times)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #75 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

Fascinating. Krake was just asking a couple of days ago how much longer, now he says they have it

Less fascinating than you might think.
I was asking how much longer it will take till some of the findings will be made public. The question about how long it takes to extract data was rhetorical. The reason I asked was because at that time I already had information of the data being extracted but had no 'trustworthy' source at hand for the case someone would have asked for it.
I didn't expected final conclusions yet but at least some partial findings like those of the voice recorder...

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

It can take longer than this when a plane hasn't been shot down, but rather got wrecked on takeoff/landing incidents. Six months and better to find out, definitively, that wind shear or perhaps a bird strike was the ultimate culprit.

Six month you say? With all the data of the blackbox and voice recorder at hand? Good luck.
The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) standard is within a month.

However, some incidents can take years or decades to get cleared up ... Others won't never get totally cleared up, serving as food for conspiracy theories.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #76 –
Quote from: krake on
.......serving as food for conspiracy theories.


Only for fertile fruit cake minds in a frenzy for off-the-wall-theories, willing to digest anything the snake oil theorist salesmen is happy to oblige them with.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #77 –
You do know, of course, that the data recorders might not tell you a lot at that. Commercial airliners don't have a lot in the way of defensive capabilities, so it's entirely possible that the flight crew had no knowledge of the missile until the plane was riddled with shrapnel and was falling from the sky. Up until the end you would hear standard conversation if anything with the plane on autopilot at 33,000 ft, the crew mainly monitoring the situation. The flight data recorder might record only standard stuff right to the point where debris hit the control surfaces and caused the sudden, violent last movements. Neither would prove, definitively, who fired the missile.

If you're expecting either the voice recorder or the flight data recorder to say, for sure, that either the Ukrainians or the Russian-backed Separatists were responsible-- you're probably gonna have a bad time.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #78 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

it's entirely possible that the flight crew had no knowledge of the missile until the plane was riddled with shrapnel and was falling from the sky.

Of course the flight crew couldn't know. That's obvious and makes me wonder why you come up with such banalities.

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

If you're expecting either the voice recorder or the flight data recorder to say, for sure, that either the Ukrainians or the Russian-backed Separatists were responsible-- you're probably gonna have a bad time.

No, I'm not expecting such a thing and I assume that no sane person does.
It's not about who downed M17. Following your assertions one might think that the analysis of the blackboxes and the voice recorder is useless anyway only because it won't tell who downed the plain. What dou you think the work is done for?

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

Up until the end you would hear standard conversation if anything with the plane on autopilot at 33,000 ft, the crew mainly monitoring the situation.

Let me tell you only about 3 things the voice recorder might reveal:
- entire communocation between M17 and the control tower
- if M17 was ordered to change course and in case it was - why?
- if the crew noticed about a military jet in the proximity of M17 and in case it did, if some communication took place

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #79 –
May I remind you SmileyFaze that the Ukrainian military has the same item. Instead of the fanatical anti-Russian stuff let's wait and see shall we? Then we can attribute blame instead of the erstwhile propaganda from all quarters. Then we can of course high light the culprits of the disaster.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #80 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

May I remind you SmileyFaze that the Ukrainian military has the same item. Instead of the fanatical anti-Russian stuff let's wait and see shall we? Then we can attribute blame instead of the erstwhile propaganda from all quarters. Then we can of course high light the culprits of the disaster.


Ok....where were those Ukrainian units RJ?

Do you know?

The only BUK units in that region belonged to the Russian separatists, so your wait & see rubbish is all soakin' wet.

The Russian Separatists were also responsible for at least 1 previously reported recent shoot-down.

How do we know.......'cuz they bragged about it.....just like they did in those intercepted communication you've conveniently forgotten about.

So, being that the only known BUK units in the region were in the control of the Russian Separatists, & being they claimed responsibility in the intercepted conversations, & being that the Separatists refused anyone near the site for days until it had been thoroughly 'cleaned up', all that points to who the culprits were .....

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, has webbed feet like a duck, it tells you it's a duck, chances are that it's actually a duck.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z-LYyzdXEk[/VIDEO]


So RJ, you can be politically correct & sit & wait for hell to freeze over all you freekin' want  ....................................

The Russian Separatists did it, & I have no doubts about that fact whatsoever

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #81 –
Dear Fox Television brained neo-con, the wide area around the plane interest was not singly controlled by either side and the Ukrainian Army does have those weapons. Without any proof you are part of the almost hysterical waffle. The rebels have only lighter personal weaponry against a fully equipped army in case you hadn't noticed or are yourr tv stations still being selective in what is shown? We will, I hope, find out whether the rebels or the Kiev forces downed the plane but you are galloping along at present without an official end announced yet in the investigation.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #82 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
.......,,..,you are galloping along at present without an official end announced yet in the investigation.......


Wake me up when they find your version of the so called "official end.." ...........prolly well after we are both dusted bones........ people died of old age waiting for the same "official" thing relative to what started the First World War too. Enjoy your Borscht.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #83 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Dear Fox Television brained neo-con, the wide area around the plane interest was not singly controlled by either side and the Ukrainian Army does have those weapons.

You can't accuse me of being Fox brained. At the time, the area was controlled by Separatists. The Ukrainian government made major advances against the separatists and reportedly have Donetsk surrounded, so that might no longer be the case.
Quote from: rjhowie on
he rebels have only lighter personal weaponry against a fully equipped army in case you hadn't noticed or are yourr tv stations still being selective in what is shown?

The rebels indeed have BUK missiles. Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, admitted to it.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #84 –
Here's an account of the day . It notes several things. Multiple towns people were witness to rebel owned BUK missile system. The seperatists' denials  are being challenged by the residents. Even before M17 was down, the Associated Press reported the BUKs coming from Russia into Ukraine. Again, we have a rebel admitting it. Oh yeah, from the photo, it was cloudy that day - making unlikely that anyone could have seen a Ukrainian fighter much less identify it as such.

The rebels did it. Case closed.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #85 –
You are brained by the coronate media over the pond it is just that you don't realise it. Anything in the ex-colonies that is propagated is automatically Moses with the tablets and anything else equally automatically wrong. Even that throway comment about the separatists being in control. No they were not because the Kiev army and the fascist membership National Guard were in the same area. There was NO set border on the trouble and NEITHER were in "control" over such a wide area of conflict. Do try and keep it sensible rather than what you are simply told or want to believe. If the Kiev lot are to blame or the separatists then fine we will know but we don't YET. That strikes me as more sensible don't you?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #86 –
Quote from: His Royal Heinous, RJ the Laconic

You are brained by the coronate media over the pond it is just that you don't realise it.......
[Move]And here's more about what I think about you damn ex-colonists..........        well, that's all the Anti-Americanism I can get out past my ole gums in one breath ....... but, there's so much more where that came from ..... now where did I put it .... oh oh yes ..... let me coax it outa my wee ass fer ya laddie....... [/Move]



Some things never change ............................................................

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #87 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
If the Kiev lot are to blame or the separatists then fine we will know but we don't YET.
Every sign points to the separatists, the people that militarily controlled the area. The area itself was separatist stronghold. The theory that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane holds as more holes in it than sieve. Meanwhile, you have civilians from that area as well as reporters who saw the separatists with the BUK missile systems. US intelligence has satellite photos of Russians bringing them across the border.

What is "coronate media" anyway? Do you mean corporate media? How are you getting your misinformation? RT, Russian state controlled media? Or maybe Smiley's right and you just coax it out of your wee ass.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #88 –
Quote from: SmileyFaze on

Some things never change ............................................................

Indeed. The sort of people who hailed the destabilisation of the Middle East (support our troops = bomb Iraq) are screaming now for the destabilization of Eurasia.
Disgusting.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Meanwhile, you have civilians from that area as well as reporters who saw the separatists with the BUK missile systems.

Yeah and the earth is flat. Isn't it?

Human rights investigations: Ukraine’s “Krasnodon” video actually in Lugansk

or here: Bogus photos of ‘Russian’ air-defense systems in Ukraine debunked by bloggers

Or this: Human rights investigations: Evidence of undercover Russian troops in Ukraine debunked

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

US intelligence has satellite photos of Russians bringing them across the border.

Where are those satellite photos made by US intelligence?

On the other hand there are satellite photos of Ukrainian BUK missile batteries deployed in the region short before the tragic incident.
Western madia doesn't even mention about those sattelite photos.

There was an US espionage sattelite and two AWACS over Ukraine at the time of the tragic incident.
Where are the photos they have made?

Only thing we are witnessing are fierce propaganda and inconsistent allegations culminating in hoaxes like this:

We now have clear evidence of artillery and rocket fire from Russia into Ukraine - Another State Department Hoax?

Even the faked proofs presented at the UN by the USA for Iraq's WoMD have been more consistent.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #90 –
Too true there krake. Unfortunately the brained like Sanguinemoon and SmileyFaze are incapable of even considering another scenario. Previous pictures were proved to be untrue as well but the White House spokeswoman who was so arrogant at saying they were true said nothing later when it was found she wasn't right.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #91 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Unfortunately the brained like Sanguinemoon and SmileyFaze are incapable of even considering another scenario.
Another scenario would be more interesting. I wonder if Krake actually bothered to read the article he offered. The author's article himself doesn't believe the email is from the State Department and questions if the information would be released in such a way.

So the most likely scenario stays the same. Russia supplied the separatists with a Soviet era surface to air missile system. The incompetent, trigger happy separatists managed to confused a commercial Malaysian flight with a Ukrainian troop transport and shut it down.

Now the Embassy link that Krake provides does say "We now have clear evidence of artillery and rocket fire from Russia into Ukraine." However, that happened between July 21 -26, after the downing of MH17. So it has nothing to do with this particular incident.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #92 –
And where Sanguinemoon  did you get the "fact" that Russia supplied the Ukrainian rebels with that missile? If Kiev based or conjured up by the White House with unverifiable "facts" tehn I have to say that I moved from Primary School to Secondary at 11 years and left fairy tales behind.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #93 –
Not exactly on topic, but this pic is in line with my feeling about flying.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #94 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

And where Sanguinemoon  did you get the "fact" that Russia supplied the Ukrainian rebels with that missile? If Kiev based or conjured up by the White House with unverifiable "facts" tehn I have to say that I moved from Primary School to Secondary at 11 years and left fairy tales behind.
Sang does not say it was a fact, he says that it is the most likely scenario.

I agree with him, given all that has transpired.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #95 –
All that has transpired??
Well I don't as it seems to fall into the trap of West media and politicians. However is responsible (if we ever find out) from which ever side needs condemnation. Meanwhile in wonderful Ukraine there are demands that a 2nd WW Nazi leader in Ukraine should be recognised and commemorated. That tells you something even more about the mess of a place as it has learned nothing. Supported Hitler in the west of the country and every year there have been marches to mark their Nazi volunteers in the 1940's. And this is the lot you are all falling in behind. The place is as corrupt as hell, run by a President who is a wealthy oligarch and has Nazis in his government. You couldn't make the damn silliness up here.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #96 –
Quote from: string on

I agree with him, given all that has transpired.

What has transpired is what every side had interest to get transpired. Most of them are based on speculations or shady evidences. Depending on what sources one reads everybody is allowed to draw the conclusions he is inclined for anyway, personal bias included.

Good luck with that.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #97 –
Bellingcat unravels Russian post-truth on the attack on MH17

https://youtu.be/mozxTk3Brqw

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #98 –
Quote from: jax on
Bellingcat unravels Russian post-truth on the attack on MH17
Bellingcat?
Is this the sort of analyst and journalist you give credit and recommend? :left:

Eliot Higgins: Occupation - blogger, 'weapons analyst' and 'citizen journalist' (so to speak none)
Quote
Higgins has no background or training in weapons and is entirely self-taught, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic.
Unfortunately, no words about schooling and professional training. All we know is that he doesn't speak Arabic (sic). Wonder if he speaks any other language than his one. :D

BTW, is this
also a Bellingcat fabrication?


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #99 –
Quote from: krake on
Bellingcat?
Is this the sort of analyst and journalist you give credit and recommend?  :left:

Eliot Higgins: Occupation - blogger, 'weapons analyst' and 'citizen journalist' (so to speak none)

Unfortunately, no words about schooling and professional training. All we know is that he doesn't speak Arabic (sic). Wonder if he speaks any other language than his one
Yes, open crowd-sourced investigative journalism has a lot of potential, as well as significant pitfalls. Without a working framework you can "prove" anything. 

It is crucial that the sources are open and testable for outside parties, ideally with a framework more like science and less like journalism. In other words preferably something equivalent to the double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. At the same time we can't expect good faith from all parties. Powerful entities like major powers, corporations and organisations will try to snow down, disparage or make fake controversy for the research.  Since the extreme right and left trust everything from Russia and nothing from their own government that is a real concern.

He cut his teeth on finding ISIL locations based on their outdoor photographs, a habit they stopped with shortly after. It took two items in the public domain, the aforementioned photos, and Google Maps. It is possible that a trained and experienced analyst, and/or good algorithms could do better. We can even assume so. With a few pieces of string the whole picture can be unravelled. 

The good news that even the most powerful organisations can be caught in their lies, and they don't come more powerful than the Russian government, the US and Chinese governments excepted.