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Topic: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine (Read 33391 times)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #25
It wasn't considered a war zone. It is now though, Ukraine is a near no-fly zone. It didn't use to be, it is the natural trajectory from Western Europe to South/Eastern Asia (like MH17), or from Northern Europe to the Arab Peninsula (and the major transport hubs at Dubai and Doha). It has significant traffic. Last flight I ordered went over Eastern Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Burma.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #26
Last flight I ordered went over Eastern Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Burma.

I thought Iran didn't have any (present-day) civil wars?


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #28

Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists.

So the separatists are interested in shooting down civil airplanes. A very strange argument which doesn't come as a surprize considering your patological russophobia.


so Putin is not impartial.

So Putin is not impartial. Isn't he?
Tell us who the f**k is impartial?
You Ersi?
Obama and its Western vasalls?
?
Anybody I've missed?


It would have been better for everyone if the war had flared up sooner on a much larger scale to let the steam out of the parties properly.

Better for everyone? Really?
Are you sure that your patologic hate doesn't hamper sometimes your ability to think?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #29

I thought Iran didn't have any (present-day) civil wars?

That's correct but Iranian planes are at risk anyway. You probably remember ...

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #30
No, Iran is safe, as is Burma (which has its share of bandits and ethnic conflict).

Generally, so is Afghanistan, Iraq, and tribal areas in Pakistan and Ukraine as well, or so I would have thought until a few days ago, as long as the plane cruises at 10 km height. All planes have to take off and land, a much riskier proposition.

The Iran Air flight 665 was shot down by USS Vincennes over Iranian waters in 1988, with 290 dead, and the Korean Air flight 007 was shot down by an SU-15 fighter over the Soviet Union in 1983, with 269 dead, and a Siberian Airlines flight 1812 was shot down by a Ukrainean missile in Crimea in 2001, with 78 dead. These things shouldn't happen, but they do.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #31
The first indicators that I got of it was that the shoot-down WAS deliberate, but that it was "mistaken identity". The intended target was a Ukrainian troop transport. Problem: It takes really good eyesight to see the difference between a troop transport plane and a civilian airliner at that distance.

In the meantime, there is a Dutch bicyclist you should pay attention to. He was scheduled to fly on the doomed flight, and decided at the last minute not to take that flight. Not once, but twice. MH370 and MH17. If you see him, and you're scheduled to take a flight he's on, and at the last minute he decides not to take that flight-- pay attention and don't take that flight. Something's going on there.

http://gawker.com/man-changes-flight-twice-escapes-death-on-both-doomed-1607754313
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #32

Who's really to blame?


[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X914xmLJN4c[/VIDEO]


Now you know.......

Seriously?  WhatI dare say he's gone full retard on this on. Of course, I wouldn't think it needs to be said that immigrants fleeing Central America in no way equates to what Russia did in Crimea. I'm not sure what to say except he needs to get back on his meds. What's next? The men in white coats come to take him away to the happy home.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #33
The man is certainly in your face in that video but once we get by the bits that might annoy some he is I am afraid, right.

It is okay for the President to supply all sorts of dodgy leaders and countries with weaponry, skills, etc as well as supplying terrorist organisation the US supports! But Heavens the idea of someone else doing that is somehow tut,tut?  Up until now the local militia in the east has only had carrying rocket firers but if they got something bigger then that is another matter. Did we have the same hyper nonsense from the media and Western politicians when a Russian passenger plane was shot down in what was it around 2001?  The trouble is that the US does not like the thought of any nation challenging them (as they see it) on rulijng the globe financially and militarily. Russia is no automatic pushover like everyone else and good for them but it niggles DC so throw what you can against Russia and Putin. Even when the White House press propagandists are found to have lied or just accepted stories from Kiev with no evidence that is okay. Based on the claim that Russia is arming the militia and threatened with more sanctions (utterly bonkers) maybe there should be a sanction on the US for what it does interfering in countries and helping terror regimes.

As for the plane disaster it is a shocking thing and whoever is to blame must be eventually found out but this crusade against Russia falls back into the hypocrisy corner right there at the top. The BRICK countries need to be more confident about challenging the dominance of the US because the DC politicos are the handy boys for the corporates who always make money after every invasion, etc. Russia has constantly said that discussions with the East are the priority which the West studiously ignores. Obama jumped in right from the start by supporting the bloody-minded and armed insurrectionists who toppled a democratically elected government. So much for the usual US rubbish and rights, freedoms, referendums, democratic routines. Obama and company will do anything to ensure the world does what America wants and Ukraine is yet another example.

Kiev has the support of the west of the country but NOT the East and one would have thought that dialogue from kiev with the East would be sensible but nope they will stomp and kill people willy-nilly in that part of the country and the US is right behind them. This is in the face of the hard fact that one half of the country is not happy with being associated with the EEC and West politics. The "revolution2 did not include those in the East who provide so much of the national income. Why does the West led by obama not take these matters on board?  The Kiev government has also lied about it's present attack on the so-called "Separists" who started out wanting their views taken into consideration and more autonomy INSIDE Ukraine. Many innocent people are being killed who have nothing to do with the conflict. Homes destroyed, water and power stoppedf. Thousands have fled across the border int the Russian Federation for safety. Kiev has shelled at least 4 times over the border. So why no concern about the refugees or the killing and dmage to civilians?

The far right is in it's elements in Ukraine and part of the government. Many are in the National Guard with those very suitable black uniforms after all many of those before them served with the Nazi war machine. So it is a vindictive and selective Kiev regime that is lying and causing mayhem that could have been avoided and the US is up to it's ears supporting what is sadly going on. In hoping that an answer to the shooting down will be found and that the dead are properly seen to does not mean that Kiev and the White House (and others) are anything more than immoral and dangerous.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #34
The black boxes immediately landed in Moscow, so Putin is not impartial.

Estonian sources are quite unreliable. They seem to have no problem showing contradictory stories side by side and to borrow from secondary and tertiary outlets without criticism, without discerning between speculation and fact.

The story that the black boxes were immediately sent to Moscow was picked up from American sources who reference an unidentified Russian radio station. The current story is that the rebels say that they have the black boxes and will turn the material over to ICAO under certain terms.

OSCE observers took note of rotten bodies on the site, many bodies missing. Some observers were taken by the rebels to some freezer railway cars where rebels keep some bodies, but the observers were not allowed to make anything resembling counting. The Dutch prime minister in particular is furious over the fact that the evidence on the site has been obviously tampered with.

Let's recall another airplane shot down a few days ago, confirmed by all major news agencies: The story of the An-26 transporter airplane of Ukrainian air force shot down by the same Donetsk separatists
Already here Ukrainian authorities were surprised that rebels have the capacity to shoot rockets so high - six kilometers, when they were supposed to go no higher than three. The rebels bragged about it (in Twitter no less), and Ukrainian defence minister Heletey is supposed to have speculated that the rocket may have come from Russian territory, because the rebels don't have the capacity to shoot rockets so high. In a normal world this should have meant a declaration of war by Ukraine to Russia, but nothing in this conflict proceeds normally.

Judge for yourselves, if you can. In my opinion, in short term the incident is bad for Putin as nobody can deny anymore that Russia is complicit here. If Putin makes any divertive move, he risks international pariah status. But from then on Putin only gets freer hands to do as he pleases, and the rest of the world probably just keeps on with the impotent diplomacy as they have thus far.

By the way, I just returned from a Nato air force showoff here in Estonia. Pretty cool to see fighter jets first hand. It would be even cooler, had it been the first time for me. Russian fighter jets showed themselves off similarly throughout the years of the regime change, and not just at the military base, but all over the country, simply to terrorise people for fun.



Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists.

So the separatists are interested in shooting down civil airplanes. A very strange argument which doesn't come as a surprize considering your patological russophobia.

Have you seen the separatists talk on Russian TV? Do you have Russian colleagues so that you could have any clue of Russian mentality? Ever experienced a Russian occupation? I haven't seen you acknowledge anything about Russia's recent geopolitical ambitions, no matter how obvious. There's no reason for me to pay attention to someone whose ideal solution for Europe seems to be the MRP.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #35
I can think of one thing that would stop Ukraine from declaring war on Russia, and that is that if a proper war gets going there's no way for Ukraine to win. For all the posturing being done by other nations, the EU mainly wants to stay out of it and without EU /Nato support there's no way the US is going to be able to do much for Ukraine even if the US wants to. Right now, the idea of a knock-down drag-out fight with Russia doesn't have that much appeal even in the crazy parts of the Pentagon, so how much we want to help Ukraine is open for debate anyway. Sanctions are one thing, and can safely be done by standard political posturing. Going to war with Russia is another matter, and it's a matter that a lot of people want nothing to do with.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #36
Sanctions are one thing, and can safely be done by standard political posturing. Going to war with Russia is another matter, and it's a matter that a lot of people want nothing to do with.


Europe to The U.S.A. :

Stay out of the Middle East.
Stay out of South East Asia.
Stay out of Eastern Europe.
Stay out of South America.

Just mind your own business.....period.

[glow=red,2,300]Russia ponders Ukranian invasion.[/glow]

Europe to the U.S.A. :

When are you going to do something about Putin?

Why don't you take an active role?

If Putin succeeds in the Ukraine, who's next/who will stop him?

Why doesn't the U.S.A. do something??



I say,  let 'em simmer in their own juices.  They're not our problem .......... We don't need 'em, nor want 'em.

Tell 'em to go to the U.N.

That should frost their cookies!




Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #37
From The Sydney Morning Herald




Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #38
More emotional stuff here on Russia and Putin. Even more so when you consider all the dodgy countries and dictatorships America has supported so a wee bit less of the ignoring the long obvious. Russia has costantly argued for deliberation from the 2 sides in Ukraine and even if he did go in to help his people living there that somehow is wrong when you consider the history of DC? The local leaders in the Eaat actually did in a brief moment ask Russia to come in but Moscow did not take that up. It will be interesting to see if Russia supplied any weaponry to the militias it would be a drop in the ocaen compared to the good ole US of A. Smileyfaze, it is about time your country stopped creating wars to keep your military supply industry up to speed and leaving behind mayhem afterwards.

As for cuplrits once again the "great Satan" (!). It supported a bunch of gun neo-Nazis in the Kiev rebellion against a government that was democratically elected. The US also knew the East of Ukraine was treated at the end of a barge pole by Kiev yet ignored that and is a disgrace so thank you America for helping make things worse not Russia. One of the most stomach churning episodes was that utter half-witted head-banger of a Senator McCain who went out to Kiev during the killing by the rightists. If he had won the Presidential funfair we would be in WW3 by now. And now the US is strongly leaning on Europe to be right behind it on sanctions and not to bother too much about loss of trade, power supplies, etc. Now how is that for complete arrogance full well knowing that it itself has no problem with power supplies or trade, etc. It is high time others told the US to sod off while they get the raw deal and DC sits back unaffected.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #39
Funny thing is, nobody except maybe the ukrainian government ( since everyone would blame the russians on either side of the border anyway ) had anything to gain from shooting that plane down. So, fuckup by the separatists sounds rather plausible to me.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #40

I can think of one thing that would stop Ukraine from declaring war on Russia, and that is that if a proper war gets going there's no way for Ukraine to win.

The purpose of declaring war against Russia would not be winning. Nobody can win Russia. The purpose would be making a point against Russia, making it clear that what's going on is unacceptable. This point has not been driven home yet neither by Ukraine or EU. As long as this point does not reach its destination, it can only get worse. Of course, to make the point, Ukraine must take initiative and the EU must back it up with a consensus as a unified front. Any other way it would be insincere. And the sincere way is not going to happen. The EU may seem a unified front now - finally, something that the Baltic countries have always been requesting -, but they are also laughably easy to take apart by Russia.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #41

More emotional stuff here on Russia and Putin. Even more so when you consider all the dodgy countries and dictatorships America has supported so a wee bit less of the ignoring the long obvious. Russia has costantly argued for deliberation from the 2 sides in Ukraine and even if he did go in to help his people living there that somehow is wrong when you consider the history of DC? The local leaders in the Eaat actually did in a brief moment ask Russia to come in but Moscow did not take that up. It will be interesting to see if Russia supplied any weaponry to the militias it would be a drop in the ocaen compared to the good ole US of A. Smileyfaze, it is about time your country stopped creating wars to keep your military supply industry up to speed and leaving behind mayhem afterwards.

As for cuplrits once again the "great Satan" (!). It supported a bunch of gun neo-Nazis in the Kiev rebellion against a government that was democratically elected. The US also knew the East of Ukraine was treated at the end of a barge pole by Kiev yet ignored that and is a disgrace so thank you America for helping make things worse not Russia. One of the most stomach churning episodes was that utter half-witted head-banger of a Senator McCain who went out to Kiev during the killing by the rightists. If he had won the Presidential funfair we would be in WW3 by now. And now the US is strongly leaning on Europe to be right behind it on sanctions and not to bother too much about loss of trade, power supplies, etc. Now how is that for complete arrogance full well knowing that it itself has no problem with power supplies or trade, etc. It is high time others told the US to sod off while they get the raw deal and DC sits back unaffected.

Words fail me.


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #43

Funny thing is, nobody except maybe the ukrainian government ( since everyone would blame the russians on either side of the border anyway ) had anything to gain from shooting that plane down.

Cui Bono?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #44
BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.


Would such a photo as this been unthinkable too?



~~ Or this one?? ~~




~~ Or this one?? ~~




~~ Or this one?? ~~




~~ Or this one?? ~~




Now, to sum it all up, & put it in a nutshell..........









Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #46
One rule for the West, another rule for the rest

What a bunch of drivel. Who's the West? Mark Rutte is the West. The UN safety council also unanimously called for a proper investigation — something incidentally hindered by the pro-Russian separatists. And who exactly supplied the aggressor Arab states with weaponry, anyhow? To top it off, as if the off-hand anti-semitism weren't bad enough, the conclusion makes no sense whatsoever. It's like blaming the ant for the broken bed.

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

It's a pity my digital newspaper archive doesn't go back to the late '80s. I'll bet you're wrong. Of course, once evidence to the contrary has been procured you'd probably claim only CNN counts.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #47
I'm trying to imagine there not being some political cartoons like that. 1988 was an election year, President Reagan was still in the White House but it was his last year. George H W Bush was "heir apparent" to the Republican nomination if not to the Oval Office, and then as now many news organizations were undisguised shills for the Democrat Party. Not trying to stick Bush with the Iranian Flight 655 incident would go against the grain of a lot of political pundits of the day.

Then of course there's the foreign press. Even if you could have a total news blackout here in the US on the incident, how do you stop the various news agencies around the world from posting political cartoons that show the US in a bad light. A thing like the Flight 655 incident would be a "gimme" for a news outfit that has an axe to grind with the US, and there's more than a handful of such organizations worldwide I would think.

We didn't have such ready access to the Internet back then. Posting to forums like this one didn't happen regularly yet, it wasn't until GHWB was warming the chair in the Oval Office that you could even buy a personal computer that would do more than play a couple of games, and DOS was still in its infancy as an operating system. But--- editorial cartoons showing something similar to the one above, except with the American president holding a broken plane in his hands? Yeah, they just about had to exist somewhere.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #48


BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

Actually there were quite a few.

I'll take your word on that.
Criticism yes but there was no such an outrage in our main stream.
Not to mention that the blame of Russia is based for the time being on speculations and started as soon as the script for the Ukraine written in Washington didn't work as expected ...

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #49

One rule for the West, another rule for the rest

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.


To a certain extent. The outrage after IR655 was muted as I remember it, far less than the fairly equivalent KE007, and massively less than the Lockerbie bombing (PA103), even though less people were killed. However there is no moral equivalence here. While the Americans were reckless, their intent wasn't to shoot down a civilian airplane, while that definitely was the intent of the PA103 bombers.

There is a fundamental attribution error at work. They are cold-blooded killers, while we just had a bad day that day. That said, if the Russians did lend an arm to insurgents untrained in the art of mass destruction, as has been alleged, it would be recklessness on a whole different level. Even the Americans drew the line at Stinger missiles.