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Topic: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine (Read 33391 times)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #150
Well at least the Pope can breathe a sigh of relief......
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #151
Well, Belfrager and I are -something like friends...
Belfrager is "something like friends" with everybody here no matter if people are Catholic, a sort of Catholic or anything else.
One day, we will remember when it was possible to people like us to speak freely one to others, and how important it was.

It will not last too long.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #152
One day, we will remember when it was possible to people like us to speak freely one to others, and how important it was.
I doubt that free speech will disappear…in the U.S. Of course, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe "hate speech" is doing a yeoman's job!
The idea that you don't dare offend government protected classes presupposes classes… And gives them political representation not afforded individuals. (Yes, I think that's a very bad idea!) The coercive power of government is best prescribed and, else, proscribed.
That's what the U.S. Constitution tried to do.

But note that our gracious host, Frenzie, and his selected moderators (most of whom we know well) have not been opposed to free speech — in fact, they've fostered it.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #153
But note that our gracious host, Frenzie, and his selected moderators (most of whom we know well) have not been opposed to free speech -- in fact, they've fostered it.
We say that "one sparrow doesn't makes spring arriving".
Free speech is not guaranteed by half a dozen individuals, it needs to be a collective's characteristic. People in general and specially new generations, be it in the US or in Europe, are already conditionated as Pavlov's dogs, they don't salivate for free speech but for materialism and a deep coma like state of idiotacy they call happiness.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #154
I doubt that free speech will disappear...in the U.S. Of course, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe "hate speech" is doing a yeoman's job!
Are you referring to some recent event? Geert Wilders was rightfully acquitted of all charges a few years back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13883331
Quote
Mr Wilders has compared the Koran to Hitler's Mein Kampf.

Judge van Oosten said that although the bench found remarks by Mr Wilders "gross and denigrating", they had not given rise to hatred.

The verdict was greeted with applause from Mr Wilders' supporters in the public gallery.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #155
The judge found him guilty of "insulting a group and incitement to discrimination"... Figuring that the conviction was punishment enough, no fine or other punishment was given!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #157
Wikipedia quickly gave me a link to the verdict. I thought section 3.3 sounded perhaps a little more relevant than it should.

Quote
De rechtbank heeft verdachte steeds de cautie gegeven, ook bij de aanvang van de inhoudelijke behandeling, als hij twitterde. Het was de rechtbank namelijk niet ontgaan dat verdachte zich meermalen over deze strafzaak en de rechtbank had uitgelaten in berichten op zijn Twitteraccount. Zo schreef verdachte over een ‘neprechtbank’, dat het vonnis al klaar lag en publiceerde hij foto’s van de rechters met een verwijzing naar de politieke partij D66. Een feitelijke onderbouwing daarvan of een toelichting daarop heeft de rechtbank nergens kunnen ontwaren. Ook in zijn laatste woord heeft verdachte zich bepaald niet onbetuigd gelaten.

De rechtbank acht deze reacties een gekozen volksvertegenwoordiger en medewetgever die een te respecteren plaats in de Nederlandse democratische rechtsstaat inneemt, onwaardig.
In summary, the suspect tweeted multiple times that it was a "fake court" and other such insults while proceedings were ongoing, as if a verdict had already been reached in advance Soviet Union style, without any evidence. The court considers this attitude unworthy of a representative.

Under 5.1.2 the crux of the matter is brought forward. It's not just the often quoted "do you want more or less Moroccans" (less! less! less!) but that he subsequently said: we'll take care of that.

They did not find him guilty of inciting hatred.

They did find him guilty of inciting discrimination (against Moroccans, a race in the legal sense), but not of doing so with predetermination.

I agree with the court in the matter of the interpretation of the law. Wilders might well have fallen off the legal tightrope in the other direction if he'd said criminal Moroccans. This is in fact what Wilders argues he meant, because his party stands for "fewer criminals, less immigration, and voluntary remigration." But perhaps uncharitably I'm more inclined to see it as a Freudian slip. It's interesting in this light that one of the witnesses (a PVV party member) testified that for them the "less Moroccans" thing came completely out of thin air precisely because the focus isn't (supposed to be?) on Moroccans.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #158
According to the Gatestone Institute, Labor representatives have unsurprisingly been saying significantly worse things without ever being prosecuted.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9533/the-guilty-verdict-dutch-politicians-wanted-so
Quote
    "We also have s*** Moroccans over here." Rob Oudkerk, Dutch Labour Party (PvDA) politician.
    "We must humiliate Moroccans." Hans Spekman, PvDA politician.
    "Moroccans have the ethnic monopoly on trouble-making." Diederik Samsom, PvDA politician.

So there's that. However, that's on the prosecutor or the plaintiff, not the court.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #159
What's "on" the culture is political correctness and the concept of "hate crime"... Very Orwellian! :) (Yeah: Blame it on the British socialist! :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #160
The less dogs, the less likely to be bitten. Not saying that every dog bites. But they are well known for doing that sometimes.
I smell overreaction somewhere.
If somebody said "less Brazilians, less whoredom", it would be only ourselves to blame.
BTW, any news on Malaysian Airlines MH17? :left:

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #161
What's "on" the culture is political correctness and the concept of "hate crime"... Very Orwellian!  :)
Possibly, but then it's been on pretty much since 1848. I wrote much the same thing a couple of years ago.

BTW, any news on Malaysian Airlines MH17?  :left:
Nope. :P

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #162
Wilders happens to be right and I think morphing Moroccans into a racist corner is ridiculous. They are a problem in the Netherlands and many Dutch know this hence the rise of Wilder's party.  So because he and large numbers of his fellow countrymen/women think that Moroccan immigrants are a problem you are not allowed an opinion on them?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #163
Since "Moroccan" isn't a race, doesn't someone who leaves Morocco stop being Moroccan? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #164
The legal definition of race in this case is more like ethnic group. You can get all the details under 5.4.2 in the ruling. It comes down to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), the first article of which reads:
In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin (emphasis mine) which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
So in legalese the word race is interpreted somewhat differently than in regular speech. But none of that is new, really, because the constitution has always protected against discrimination based on race, religion, worldview or any other grounds. Slightly newer (but quite a bit older than me) are the explicit protections against discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation and handicap in regular law, but that's just a matter of implementing the broad brush of the constitution.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #165
And you don't see how crazy that is…?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #166
Protip: the term legalese is pejorative. ;)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #167
Just as well we know that is meant to be a satirical touch Oakdale. You lot have been in war after war, invasions, de-stabilising and so on. Three out of three for the attempt.
We've had such good teachers...Europe and the grand colonizer....

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #168
Nah you ignored our way and being young and full of such youthful pomposity thought you could be different Mr Tennessee. My flag is special but you haven't caught up any mature experience really! :whistle:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #169
Drie keer levenslang, eenmaal vrijspraak in het MH17-proces

So the responsibility for having shot down this airplane is deemed to be on Russia.

The same can be said of the missile that landed in Poland. Even if it turns out to be a Ukrainian air defence missile, it was launched under a Russian rocket attack all over the country.