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Topic: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine (Read 33394 times)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #1
The Malaysian flight was packed with Frenzie's compatriots. Condolences.

As far as I know, there's still no official declaration of extraordinary circumstances in the war zone. The Kievite govt should have declared it immediately when Crimea was snatched away. Now there are civilian activities happening in and around the war zone, which is deadly for ordinary people.


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #3
The calls also indicate they were setting up excuses. The plane was also carrying about 100 people to an international AIDS conference, including several prominent researchers. That's slightly over 1/3 of the passengers.
Even more so as Europe does 10 times the business with Russia that America does but the EEC is whimperingly following the dog's lead and well knows that it will suffer more in money with Russia trade than America.

You're joking right?   [url=http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/russia/] EU trade with the Russia EU Business with the US dwarfs that with Russia.

I wonder, Mr. Howie, how you would react if the US pulled the same stunt Russia did. Let's say the US wanted Baja California for some reason (the long, thin peninsula just below the state of California.) So we make up some excuse, let's say America citizens are in danger there. It's somewhat plausible, given there have been kidnapping of Americans in Mexico. So the US sends in troops to supposedly to protect American interests. Suddenly there are military in unidentified uniforms occupying the region. The American president denies those are American troops, but that turns out to be lie. There's a referendum and suspiciously large number of people in the the region vote to join America, let's say 98% not even a more reasonable percentage such as 53%. The government of Mexico objects, of course. What's that, the majority of Baja Californians aren't American (since no one can even begin to claim there's any such thing as the American ethnic group.) True, but US citizens have large numbers of relatives that still live there. So, with the US pulling almost the same shit as Russia did with Crimea in this scenario, who do you side with?


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #5
The following report from the London Evening Standard is very damning: (and not pleasant to read)
Malaysian Airlines plane crash: As Putin blames Ukraine for MH17 tragedy, video emerges 'showing BUK missile launcher being driven into place'

I saw a video clip on the BBC TV News of Putin where he gave his reaction and in which he stated that the Ukraine was responsible for the downing of the plane because it happened on their territory. see a video clip here

It struck me that Putin was not even able to look the camera "in the eye" when he made his remarks.

Would you trust a man that did not look you in the eye?

Sick transit, Gloria!

Reply #6
This thread's title described it honestly and accurately from its inception.
This new atrocity should have a thread of its own.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #7
[Move][glow=blue,2,300]BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ....................................... BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ....................................... BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! [/glow][/Move]



An American Citizen confirmed murdered on Malaysian Flight MF17.

He was a Dutch National with dual American - Dutch citizenship, traveling on a Dutch passport.


President Obama is sending a poignant message direct from his stints on the campaign trail  --  where the Commander-In-Chief spends all his non-golfing time  --  to Russia's President Putin,  that will surely get the Vlad's undivided attention & stop all this silly Ukrainian invasion stuff.


 

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #8
WTF???

   I dunno how, but.......................... 

    I Gotta stop the Jack Daniels!!!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #9
A bad year for Malaysian Airlines.


Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone


Crashes???  Crashes???   You've got to be joking ........

Regardless who is to blame,  [glow=green,2,300]A Civilian Malaysian Passenger Jet was deliberately Shot Down,
[/glow] & over 290 innocent human beings were [glow=black,2,300]cold-bloodedly murdered.[/glow]

It didn't just crash..............it was deliberately shot down............no ifs, buts, or ands.

The Politically Over-Correct BBC has their bloody royal heads up their collective bloody royal asses once again!


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #11
Followed this on the radio since I didn't have Internet the past couple of days. My opinion, based on what I heard:

At first, I heard that separatists claimed credit-- in a tweet-- for shooting down a Ukraine transport. This tweet was taken down immediately upon discovery that the plane shot down was, in fact, the Malaysian commercial aircraft-- then, everybody who might have had anything to do with it started blaming somebody else just as fast as they could.

Who could have done it? The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, too high for shoulder-launched missiles to have much of a chance of reaching it, much less shooting it down. So, it had-- it appears-- to be considerably more sophisticated. A mobile launcher, with tracking capabilities, firing either heat-seeking or radar-guided missiles.

We have the Ukraine. They might have the hardware/software. We have the Russian Federation. They've got it. We have the separatists. They can only get such hardware from one of the others--- Russia being the favorite bad-guy supplier here.

Behavior on the ground looks suspiciously like the separatists-- who control that area-- are making sure that any evidence implicating them gets cleaned up at once. Funny thing, that tweet when they thought it was a Ukraine transport came from a separatist leader, and my suspicion is that if the plane had been a Ukraine military transport these separatists would be dancing in the street right now.

So-- to use that old game "Clue" and its way of doing things:

The Separatists did it using missile hardware and maybe missile operators from Russia.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down in Ukraine

Reply #12

I saw a video clip on the BBC TV News of Putin where he gave his reaction and in which he stated that the Ukraine was responsible for the downing of the plane because it happened on their territory. see a video clip here
Would you trust a man that did not look you in the eye?

Whether you like or trust Putin is irrelevant. Kiev is responsable for what happens on Ukrainian territory. It doesn't even need a Putin to realize this.
- It was Kiev who prefered the path of civil war instead of honest negociations with the separatist regions.
- It was Kiev who turned the airspace over the separatist regions into warspace. Once they did, why didn't they close the airspace for civilian flights at least?
- Ensuring the security of civilian aviation in a state's airspace is the responsibility of the respective state.
- Last but not least, why didn't Ukrainian traffic controll divert the traffic from the warspace and who ordered that Flight MH17 should fly right above a combat zone when the flight used a more southerly route before?

Some airlines like Air France or British Airlines have changed their traditional routes for quite some time avoiding Ukraine. Others didn't, to avoid extra costs.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #13
One thing is certain, and that is that the missile seems to have come from separatist-controlled territory. After that things get murky fast.

1. The separatists are unlikely to have the technology themselves to be able to pull this off. I'd hazard a guess that left to their own devices, they wouldn't be much better armed than one of America's "militia" outfits.

2. If # 1 is true, and right now I personally have little reason to doubt it, then the missile and its launching system had to be either Ukrainian or Russian. If Ukrainian, how did a Ukraine outfit manage to get a missile, its launching hardware and so on into separatist-controlled territory without raising a ruckus that would have been noticed? Russian is easier in this case-- the separatists are in with and probably being supplied by the Russians so it's not impossible that the whole missile thing is Russian except for one little thing.

3. About that one little thing: An aircraft at 33,000 feet altitude is not the easiest thing to identify from a ground base. You can see the airplane and track it all right, but who owns it? I'm having a little trouble with the idea that Russians would shoot down a craft they didn't clearly identify as being enemy-- so that means that while the hardware may be Russian, it was most likely a separatist pulling the trigger/making the decisions in the belief it was a Ukrainian plane.

Now, of course the trigger-finger could be Russian-- &*$# happens and civilians get killed in war all the time-- but somehow I'd think professional Russian missile launchers might take the time to clearly identify their target. The situation already stinks so making an uglier international incident out of it is in nobody's best interest. Especially with the rest of the world suspecting that all three of the main players-- Russian, Ukrainian and Separatist-- have more than a little blame in all of this.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #14
@Krake - The plane was shot down on the territory "of" the pro Russian Separatists. Ukraine does not control that territory, so your "logic" falls flat. It is a direct result of the insurrection fostered, supported and armed by Putin. He has dirty fingers in this whether his covert troops are directly involved on the day or not.

As for the remarks on whether the airline should be flying there I thoroughly agree that was daft, but one solid not let that deflect from the fact that all those people were murdered by the missile that hit the plane.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #15

@Krake - The plane was shot down on the territory "of" the pro Russian Separatists. Ukraine does not control that territory, so your "logic" falls flat.

Speaking about logic, this time your logic.
How can Kiev declare its airspace secure for civil aviation to the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) if it doesn't have controll over it? Wouldn't you call it irresponsible?


It is a direct result of the insurrection fostered, supported and armed by Putin. He has dirty fingers in this whether his covert troops are directly involved on the day or not.

As for your remarks regarding the insurrection - it is the result of the coup d'état in Kiev which wasn't neither planned, organized nor financed by Putin ...
After a destabilized Middle East we might witness a destabilized Eastern Europe. If it makes you comfortable you can blame Putin for both ...

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #16
Maybe we could blame both Russia and the United States for causing destabilization. Both governments seem to be at it, and with no clear understanding of what their meddling is likely to produce later

Note: Before RJHowie can barge in and wave his finger at us-- we learned from the experts in meddling. The UK wrote the book on meddling in affairs it little understood before the US came on the scene, and an interesting book it is too. It happens to all the best empire-builders.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #17
Oh dear Sanguinemoon you are so taken in. On the subject of stunts which nation on the planet is mostly top of "stunts"?

The black box may be of some help in the investigation and already Western media is hyping it all on Russia like demented headcases.  I will prefer to wait for more definite evidence in due course. So far the local militias have only had rockets that could be back carried and therefore rather limited in their capability. Equally, Kiev downed a Russian passenger plane back around 2001 and even after international investigation blames them for "making a mistake" they still denied it. The same Kiev yakked out on 2 journalists accused of carrying rockets in the boot of their car and the White House red haired mouth woman said it was "true" as Kiev had told them it was. When this was found to be a lie there was no apology from Kiev or DC.Too many loose ends and runaway emotion on who is supposed to have downed it.  So before shooting mouths off too much let us see what the international investigators find out, eh?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #18
Who's really to blame?


[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X914xmLJN4c[/VIDEO]


Now you know.......

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #19
Of course Obama did it. He used a longbow at 20 paces.

I don't think we can lay this one on Obama's doorstep though, in reality. I don't mind blaming him for being a miserable president-- he is that. But, the MH17 disaster? Really?
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #20
I don't think we can lay this one on Obama's doorstep though............


Well, of course Obama didn't physically fire the missile himself, nor did Potin, but by their obvious
individual direct actions or inaction, both can be held to blame for the outcomes -- past, present, & future --
as if they did, in this particular instance,  as if they did the actual firing themselves.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #21
there are some Weird sh*t in this tragedy .

Why Malay airlines fly throught  the Zone of Conflicts ?

and Why the ukrainians or Whoever Shot Down that ,  cant determine Which are Air bus or  Military Plane ?


Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #22
Many unfortunate and messy things coinciding. There's no proper state of emergency declared in Ukraine, even though there's an obvious war going on. EU Transport Commissioner had recommended the lowest flight level as 10000 metres and the airplane was following that. The separatists should not have rockets that fly so high. Russians and Ukrainians have them, but Ukrainians have no reason to shoot a rocket into the air this way because the separatists have no airplanes.

Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists. The black boxes immediately landed in Moscow, so Putin is not impartial. And it has been obvious all along since the Crimean incident that Putin is not impartial here. A beautiful resort area with militarily and commercially valuable ports did not land on Putin's lap accidentally and unintendedly. These things do not happen just so. It takes lots of conscious orchestration.

And EU/US, who apparently hoped to architecture another Orange Revolution, have been playing all cards wrong. The Crimean incident came totally unexpected to them, even though it has repeated historical antecedents, including very recent ones. The EU response to all of them has suffered from lack of coordination and unwillingness to acknowledge that repeated events like these reveal the true character of Russia and Putin. The EU hoped that a peaceful solution could arrive by itself by merely waiting, so the new government of Ukraine was discouraged from declaring a state of emergency and from making full noise as they should have for losing Crimea.

Due to thirst for Russian gas, the sanctions by EU have been undecided at best. When the EU hopes to tone down the crisis resulting in indecisive response, Russia only boldens up when its enemies show weakness. This is historically perfectly in harmony with Russia's character, and EU should have learned from history by now.

OSCE is examining the site as we speak. Reporting about this is kind of intermittent. In Estonian sources (which I trust less) it says that the separatists are moving the bodies and hiding them nobody knows where. Finnish sources (which I trust more) say that the officials of the Ukrainian ministery of emergency situations (there's a ministery by this name in Russia too) are moving the bodies. Both sources say that there was a dangerous standoff between Ukrainian authorities and the separatist forces before the way was cleared for OSCE observers, that the site is horrid and the bodies are in bad shape, that the OSCE observers are basically at the mercy of fate, scared and clueless and they would rather be somewhere else...

It would have been better for everyone if the war had flared up sooner on a much larger scale to let the steam out of the parties properly. These politically incompetent EU attempts at containment only build up tension and ensure a worse war later.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #23
Why Malay airlines fly throught  the Zone of Conflicts?


Actually until this incident it was a fairly common practice.

One CNN commentator I watched said that quite a few other airlines also flew the same route on the same day   ---   Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways, KLM, Lufthansa ........ day in, day out.

Just because they fly that route doesn't change the fact that those 290+ innocent dead didn't deserve to die --- they weren't at any fault whatsoever.

The fault lies solely with those that fired the missile(s), & the leader(s) that empowered them.....,..period

In the end, only cowards will choose to blame these innocent victims of Flight MH17, & the airlines that flew them.




Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #24

Who's really to blame?


[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X914xmLJN4c[/VIDEO]


Now you know.......


Who is this lunatic?
I have seen other little videos of his, equally incoherent, equally bizarre.
Does he intend to be taken seriously? Has he got a regular slot on some T.V. network?
Is he mocking some well-known commentator?
He certainly isn't known here in the Antipodes.