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Topic: Mysticism (Read 34477 times)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #50 –
This answer is timeless, of course. But timeless answers are evidently not for you. Inquire the source that is for you.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #51 –
you really have no idea if happy is emotion did't you ? :left:

Re: Mysticism

Reply #52 –
You really have no idea of a holistic approach, do you?

Happiness is the state for all psychological functions, not only emotions. Emotional and intellectual happiness is merely obvious, not the only kind to be had. Spiritual happiness is most important, but in a holistic approach, happiness on every level is relevant.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Quote from: ersi on
That's exactly what blessed Ruysbroek says. He puts a check on himself referring to church's authority. What's your reaction? I personally prefer uninhibited individual quest.

That's why a female mystic like Hadewijch is both literarily and mystically speaking more interesting than Ruusbroec. In fact Ruusbroec adopted several of her ideas without attribution, but that aside.


Frenzie , is that Mysticim you are pointing about is something like ?

a religious practice based on the belief that knowledge of spiritual truth can be gained by praying or thinking deeply

Re: Mysticism

Reply #54 –
Quote from: Sparta on
Frenzie , is that Mysticim you are pointing about is something like ?

a religious practice based on the belief that knowledge of spiritual truth can be gained by praying or thinking deeply

I think that sounds more like a description of something akin to natural theology than of mysticism, but of course it's not like there's one mysticism or anything.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #56 –
pardon ...

may you describe that kind of mysticism ?  :coffee:

Re: Mysticism

Reply #57 –
I did. Read the fourth post in this thread (my second in this thread).

Re: Mysticism

Reply #58 –
Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: Frenzie on

...but of course it's not like there's one mysticism or anything.

...regardless what actual mystics say, right?

That could be a perfectly sensible position. Of course, "actual mystics" have written plenty of heated polemics about how other mystics are wrong. But "regardless what actual mystics say," you might conclude that all of the different mysticisms are just making mountains out of molehills.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #59 –
Frenzie , pardon my manner  and compulsivity ..

i am not intend to poisoning the well ..


but , are you trying to describe mysticism ?

or social skills ?

i dont even try to prove if mysticism is wrong , really ..

it 's just kinda weird , and little straw man

Re: Mysticism

Reply #60 –
Quote from: Sparta on
but , are you trying to describe mysticism ?

or social skills ?

Neither, I was just pointing out that ersi's insinuation is both factually and epistemologically mistaken.

Mysticism in the broader sense means every experience in which the individual limitations are lifted and conjoined with the Other—or forgotten during some kind of transcendent nothingness. During such an experience there is no sense of the passing of time, combined with an intuitive knowledge and clarity. Once the experience subsides there is often a sense of depression at how horrible puny earthly life is.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #61 –
Frenzie, if I'm mistaken, I can be proven wrong. Until then, consider that there are experts and laymen in this area, as in any area of inquiry. You have the fallacious tendency to assume that in some select disciplines expertise doesn't apply.

Now, your description is mistaken in a subtle way. And all your views about mysticism that stem from this description are consequently also mistaken.

There's no depression after the experience subsides. It's true that the physical or sensory world pales in and after the mystical experience, but the result is not depression with regard to the empirical world. The result is a perspective of transcendental reality. In the genuine mystical experience, the acquired transcendental perspective becomes the new psychological nature of the individual which overpowers any sense of depression or hopelessness. In fact, the loss of depression and gradually enhanced skills of individual stress management are some of the immediate tangible reasons to practise mysticism (such as meditation, concentration, contemplation) in the first place.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #62 –
That's a lot of words to dress up the No True Scotsman fallacy in, ersi! :)

Quote from: ersi on
if I'm mistaken, I can be proven wrong

Not if you keep your terms so vague that others cannot both understand you and disagree! (That is your argument, isn't it?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #63 –
At "The problem with Atheism" thread, Ive been saying that we don't create we can only discover.
The Mystical experience is another form of discovering, as well as Reason or Arts.

Each way has it's own characteristics, but the Mystical experience differs from the other two at a very important factor, being totally personal and impossible of being transmitted to others. It escapes language, pictorial representation and comprehension.

Maybe we can consider the Mystical experience as the more intense, perhaps brutal, form of discovery.
It is done, not by the traditional approach of a subject that discovers an object that is discovered, but by fusion between the subject and the object. (subject and object at a gnoseological meaning evidently)

If people gets hot, cold, hungry or whatever I have no idea. It seems probable to me that the sensory frame set to suffer alterations.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #64 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
If people gets hot, cold, hungry or whatever I have no idea.

This is what I take to be the main argument contra such… I'd agree that there is no unassailable warrant; but, then, I long ago gave up the search for unassailable warrants.
Those who still want (! both senses !: lack and desire…) unassailable warrants mystify me! (That is, I don't understand what they want (ask) of me. Is nodding my head whenever they speak sufficient? Repeating their particular verbal formulations? Giving them access to my bank accounts? :) ) Why are my personal, eccentric pronouncements not given the primacy and potency of -say- Gautama? Because no statues of me exist?
(Had the Taliban had and used nuclear weapons, would there be no Buddha?)
Buddy Hackett went to Japan with the then-host of the Tonight Show, a variety/talk show on American (US) television, Jack Paar… They were scheduled to bathe in the communal baths and Paar pleaded with Hackett, "Please don't get naked in the bath…" Buddy promised he wouldn't.
He got naked in the elevator on its way to the baths! But the elevator had malfunctioned and returned them to the lobby.
Buddy, not perturbed, exited the elevator… He later remarked that the Japanese there mistook him for the Buddha! And, in a telling and consequential detail, said they tried to light incense in his navel!
Were they wrong? Had they lost the import of Gautama's teachings? Or was Buddy lying?
The last, I think! But it was funny…


Thus I express my dismay that a thread on Sense of Humor was locked! You all know why…
————————————

Quote from: Belfrager on
The Mystical experience is another form of discovering

Or as Sparta so eloquently puts it: BS!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #65 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

That's a lot of words to dress up the No True Scotsman fallacy in, ersi! :)

Surely you can prove it. Go ahead. I don't care how many words you need for it. I will read.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: ersi on
if I'm mistaken, I can be proven wrong

Not if you keep your terms so vague that others cannot both understand you and disagree! (That is your argument, isn't it?)

I am all for further clarification. Ask and I always reply. The same cannot be said of you. I have patience for you, but at some point your irrelevance grows beyond a rational limit.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #66 –
Quote from: ersi on
Surely you can prove it. Go ahead.

You basically claimed that any mystic that says something you disagree with can't really be a mystic™… Isn't that the import of the No True Scotsman fallacy?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #67 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: ersi on
Surely you can prove it. Go ahead.

You basically claimed that any mystic that says something you disagree with can't really be a mystic™… Isn't that the import of the No True Scotsman fallacy?

That would be a fallacy, yes, but to prove the fallacy, you have to point to a mystic that disagrees with another mystic. And prior to this, you have to define mysticism to demonstrate your comprehension of it, and to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

All along, my I is irrelevant. Only truth matters.

PS My bad. I just remembered you already defined it as BS. With this level of willingness to understand the topic, all your talk about any fallacies is moot, but I am ready to throw this point out as soon as your comprehension and attitude improve.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #68 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Mysticism in the broader sense means every experience in which the individual limitations are lifted


is this just my sceptical mind , or that was symptomp of psychopathy ?

--grandiose self perception,  Psychopaths will often believe they are smarter or more powerful than they actually are

Re: Mysticism

Reply #69 –
Quote from: ersi on
Frenzie, if I'm mistaken, I can be proven wrong. Until then, consider that there are experts and laymen in this area, as in any area of inquiry. You have the fallacious tendency to assume that in some select disciplines expertise doesn't apply.

So basically I have this odd tendency of looking at standard reference works written by laymen like Kurt Ruh and Bernard McGinn instead of taking everything you say as gospel? :)

Quote from: ersi on
Now, your description is mistaken in a subtle way. And all your views about mysticism that stem from this description are consequently also mistaken.

I was momentarily wondering whether I might've left out a qualifier in my ad-hoc definition for Sparta's benefit, but I did indeed add "often." The experts I mentioned above (as well as e.g. this well-regarded lexicon; you can see its sources at the bottom) say that there often is some form of depression after a mystical experience because of how overwhelming it is. Besides which, even though I argued no such thing myself, you essentially just argued that mysticism with some form of depression following the experience is a different variety than mysticism without any depression.

Quote from: Sparta on
is this just my sceptical mind , or that was symptomp of psychopathy ?

In Hildegard von Bingen's case, a popular theory is that her visions were caused by migraine bouts.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #70 –
But –someone should add, quickly– that doesn't mean that her visions were meaningless, worthless or detrimental…
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #71 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Quote from: ersi on
Frenzie, if I'm mistaken, I can be proven wrong. Until then, consider that there are experts and laymen in this area, as in any area of inquiry. You have the fallacious tendency to assume that in some select disciplines expertise doesn't apply.

So basically I have this odd tendency of looking at standard reference works written by laymen like Kurt Ruh and Bernard McGinn instead of taking everything you say as gospel? :)

Thanks for the names, finally. They seem to be historians. Naturally you are free to choose your own gospel.

Your original contention was that there's no one mysticism. Of course when you look at historical lives of people and keep noting their peculiar differences, there's no one anything. No one history either. Didn't you at some point come close to saying that there's even no universal morality/ethics? (I'm quite sure you hold this but not sure if you straightforwardly said so.) So we are simply talking past each other due to diametrically opposed perspectives. Sorry for the mixup.

Quote from: Frenzie on

I was momentarily wondering whether I might've left out a qualifier in my ad-hoc definition for Sparta's benefit, but I did indeed add "often." The experts I mentioned above (as well as e.g. this well-regarded lexicon; you can see its sources at the bottom) say that there often is some form of depression after a mystical experience because of how overwhelming it is. Besides which, even though I argued no such thing myself, you essentially just argued that mysticism with some form of depression following the experience is a different variety than mysticism without any depression.

Indeed, from your point of view there can be a variety of mysticism with depression as well as without, but what if depression is plainly the wrong word to describe the return phase? If there's depression "often", why would anyone want to practise at all?

I'm not saying that depression doesn't happen. I'm saying that it doesn't happen often, and it's definitely the wrong thing to happen. When depression overpowers you as a consequence of your practice, it's a sure sign you are doing it wrong, just like when you pole vault, you may break your bones, but it's the wrong thing to happen. It's not some legitimate variety of pole vaulting when you break your bones. Competence matters. Seriously.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

But –someone should add, quickly– that doesn't mean that her visions were meaningless, worthless or detrimental…

Or, one might add that popular theories are often just that. Mere theories, even if popular.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #72 –
Quote
In Hildegard von Bingen's case, a popular theory is that her visions were caused by migraine bouts


Well,

  that going different  in my Mind  :monkey:

IMHO

that's Schizotypy  , or probably more Worst .

--Schizophrenia

Re: Mysticism

Reply #73 –
Quote from: ersi on
PS My bad. I just remembered you already defined it as BS.

You're hung-up on the common interpretation of Sparta's term... If he's attempting to use it as a technical catch-all for as-yet unverified speculations, the derogatory connotations need not apply; and you need not be so miffed.
Quote from: ersi on
If there's depression "often", why would anyone want to practise at all?

For the same reason most heroin users become addicts? :) (Just something to consider...)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #74 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: ersi on
PS My bad. I just remembered you already defined it as BS.

You're hung-up on the common interpretation of Sparta's term... If he's attempting to use it as a technical catch-all for as-yet unverified speculations, the derogatory connotations need not apply;

My objection stands. To call this topic "unverified speculations" is derogatory.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: ersi on
If there's depression "often", why would anyone want to practise at all?

For the same reason most heroin users become addicts? :) (Just something to consider...)

You are only making it worse. But it's okay, you are obviously good at it.