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Topic: Mysticism (Read 34473 times)

Re: Mysticism

Reply #25
I presume you're talking about archaic-primitive cultures with their logic of ambiguity (a can also be -a). I too don't know what it's called in English.

Yes Frenzie, but not just that. They weren't able of mentally "extracting" from each exemplar they saw the characteristics that allows to define the togetherness of those particular exemplars as a concept.

Each tree was an entity. They couldn't use the sum of characteristic that we can analyze almost all trees have : a general common shape, being green, not moving, having roots, etc that allows us to communicate between each other in abstract way about "trees".

It leads to what you say, something could perfectly be a and -a.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #26
Burials with flowers. Think about it.

Pretty vague, even for you… (But it's likely just a sexist joke? :) )
If an evolution of conscience is to be connected with religious concerns then we have to go much much earlier when, eventually, men had the so called "pre-logic" mentality meaning the incapacity for creating abstract concepts of definitions.

I presume you meant "consciousness" and not "conscience"? But I take your meaning: pre-archaic, archaic-paralogical and paralogical-logical (as Campbell's Psychiatric Dictionary has it).
Such hardly seems supportable on the basis of extant writing… (And  ethnographys are too fanciful to permit such a conflation of "modern" primatives with proto-humans.) So again I ask:
How did you reach your conclusion?
———————————
p.s.,
who cares about psychopathology? James (and other militant atheists) would!


And, apparently, you too… The amount of Freudian bunkum found in early anthropological works is unbelievable.
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #27
Pretty vague, even for you… (But it's likely just a sexist joke?  :)  )

No, not a joke, I mean it.

If you put flowers at burial sites it means:
a) the dead person is not just a reproducing partner but a beloved one. Emotions.
b) you believe in afterlife. Soul.
c) you want it to be beautiful. Aesthetics.

Emotions, Soul and Aesthetics - you're knocking at God's door.

I presume you meant "consciousness" and not "conscience"? But I take your meaning: pre-archaic, archaic-paralogical and paralogical-logical (as Campbell's Psychiatric Dictionary has it).
Such hardly seems supportable on the basis of extant writing… (And  ethnographys are too fanciful to permit such a conflation of "modern" primatives with proto-humans.) So again I ask:
How did you reach your conclusion?

Yes, consciousness. Sometimes I translate into English in a very direct way. ( Consciência - Conscience. I viscerally fight the need to adding "ness" to everything.)
You'll pardon my liberality while speaking English. :)

What conclusion? that "your" psychologist is a kind of psychology creationist? :)
Extant writing? Well, you can read "my" theory at "Man - The Imperial Animal" by Lionel Tiger and Robin Fox.

It's a much more juicy book than the one from the guy who believes Man's intellect to appeared three thousand years ago and would be my recommendation for everybody to read about Man's evolution.
A bit revolutionary too as everything should be.
The amount of Freudian bunkum found in early anthropological works is unbelievable.

That's exactly why I've raised so many objections at my previous posts - If, admitting, it remains to be seen, etc...
I entirely agree with you that Anthropology (as well as Ethnography) used to be a field mined by Freudian (and leftist) hallucinations.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #28
If you put flowers at burial sites it means:
a) the dead person is not just a reproducing partner but a beloved one. Emotions.
b) you believe in afterlife. Soul.
c) you want it to be beautiful. Aesthetics.

Emotions, Soul and Aesthetics - you're knocking at God's door.

None of these are precluded by Jaynes' thesis… Presumably, some or all are beyond the pre-logicals of armchair archeologists? (Again, I don't accept the psychologizing from early ethnographers as an unimpeachable technique.)

By "extant writing" I meant the writing of the subjects whose mental history is being explored… For obvious reasons, non-literate societies can't really offer much in the way of such opportunity!

Have you read Duran Bell's "Bands, Fertility and the Social Organization of Early Humans"? (pdf, not the greatest quality…some typos I suspect are due to OCR errors) Something to consider: Its quality of argument/evidence, compared with your "leisure" theory of religion… :)


Once again, I think you misconstrue the quality of mind Jaynes' bicameral thesis posits. By the same token, I think you too willingly accept the characterization of modern primitives as "pre-logic" — in your sense.
——————————————
About your "liberality" when speaking English: It's not a problem for me. If I'm unsure of your usage, I can always ask… :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #29
Have you read Duran Bell's "Bands, Fertility and the Social Organization of Early Humans"? (pdf, not the greatest quality…some typos I suspect are due to OCR errors) Something to consider: Its quality of argument/evidence, compared with your "leisure" theory of religion…

Now I have, thank you.
So, it's "quality" versus mine... well "relaxed" or "leisure" approach as you say.

Unfortunately I see no quality of argument/evidence anywhere from the the first word to the last one. Concluding from today hunter gatherers, that lives with low resources and acts accordingly, that, in the past, probably people lived differently and questioning the social form of bands in exchange for something he confesses not to have any idea about it, is not the idea of quality of argument/evidence around my part of the world.

As for my defense, besides asking for your mercy, I only would remember that this a forum. A relaxed, leisure, kind of forum. :)
You say white, I say black, you say black I say white. How things really are it's irrelevant in this place of magic. Besides, probably everything is just boring gray...

Making people to smile is enough recompense and your arguments certainly can do it.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #30
Hm. You perhaps recall my many mentions of Jaynses' book at MyOpera? No matter. Suffice to say, I always claimed that its thesis was so intriguing that I preferred it — even though it likely wasn't true… :)
Sigh. It turns out that Jaynses' ideas have had fairly recent confirmation of sorts. A philosopher can't even have his Just So stories anymore! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #31
Unfortunately I see no quality of argument/evidence anywhere from the the first word to the last one.

(Sorry to go this far back: But the site is, for me, too quiet… :) And you said something interesting here that I didn't notice at first.) While I'll admit that the style is turgid —quite typical in academic venues— it can be read with profit, if one has acquired the knack.
(You might say the same about European or Iberian Idealisms… No? :) )

First, you must understand that the author bemoans the influence of unsupportable biases, on the basis of ethnographical studies… The author is more an ethologist, taking his cues from animals of all sorts, not just humans; and interested in particular behaviors. (So, BTW, was Jaynes… But that's another argument!) And he reasons from Darwinian Fitness considerations to a rejection of the particular bias which posits "bands" as the primary organizational model of early human populations… Along the way, he shows why "bands" do come into existence and why they persist, citing historical examples. Then, he diverts us with a seemingly irrelevant discussion of a fairly common practice; and attempts to explain it in terms of ecological considerations — pertinent to the mode of social organization known as "bands". Finally, he ties it all up with an argument that he thinks is consistent with Darwinian Fitness, as a determinant factor in early human social evolution…that relegates "bands" -properly understood- as an adaptation to marginal circumstances, and certainly not a common one [if the growth of early human populations is to be explained].
I suspect you just didn't appreciate the "bands" posit -as the most likely organizational mode of early humanity- and its basis [perverse popularity among non-evolutionist anthropologists — essentially, sociologists pretending to be scientists]. In the author's defense, it's his field that is hijacked by this biased view…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #32
The author is more an ethologist, taking his cues from animals of all sorts, not just humans; and interested in particular behaviors.

Ethology can only be considered a social science with all the precautions of this world.
Probably, it's better not to do it and let it be just what it is, zoology.
Finally, he ties it all up with an argument that he thinks is consistent with Darwinian Fitness, as a determinant factor in early human social evolution…that relegates "bands" -properly understood- as an adaptation to marginal circumstances, and certainly not a common one [if the growth of early human populations is to be explained].

That's the key point.
If not the marginal circumstances and everything would had been in a different way.... (that he obviously not even has a clue about what it could be.)
Wow, what a genius.

One can only think about "marginal" circumstances (low level of resources for example) as in comparison with today's higher levels. Marginal was the norm back then not the exception.
Besides, that's not pacific. You certainly know the "society of abundance" theory relating those times, no?
I suspect you just didn't appreciate the "bands" posit -as the most likely organizational mode of early humanity-

No no, not at all. I'm a bandist. :)
I repeat, if not bands then what else?

I just remind you that we need to find a way of fitting mysticism into the social organization of early humans in order to not diverge too much from topic. For now we are at a circular chain of reasoning that - we hope so - will make the trick. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #33
One can only think about "marginal" circumstances (low level of resources for example) as in comparison with today's higher levels. Marginal was the norm back then not the exception.

Hence, modern hunter/gatherer bands must be just those who stuck to the ancient way of life? :)
First, to say that one can only think about "marginal" circumstances compared to today's levels is a drug-addled fantasy: Land not contested by others of one's kind or predators, no serious impediment to access to sufficient water and food sources, no armchair archeologists; such would qualify as an abundance! Any of these negatives might fail: which could understandably lead to a marginality of early human populations…
Since early human populations proliferated at a rate beyond that capable of populations dealing with marginal circumstances, those that became dominant -at least, numerically- were not dealing with marginal circumstances…
Since the "band" makes little (I'd agree with the author…) or no sense unless under persistent circumstances of regular and, often enough, extreme deprivation; social organizations of prolific populations had to have had a different form.
The posited fertility-as-wealth factor is a reasonable candidate….

If, Belfrager, you're confusing Bob [Zimmerman] Dylan's electric backup band with what Pleistocene populations might have had as social aggregations — I can't help you here! "He ain't heavy, he's my brother…"
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #34
If, Belfrager, you're confusing Bob [Zimmerman] Dylan's electric backup band with what Pleistocene populations might have had as social aggregations — I can't help you here! "He ain't heavy, he's my brother…"

Well, I'm sure that the only explanation for your insistence it's because you and the author you quoted keep ignoring:
a) what a band is and what the alternative would be;
b) the level of naturally available resources at those early times;
c) population density back then;
d) migrations and nomadism or semi nomadism;
e) archaeological evidence;
f) and probably using imaginary and absurd values of population growing rates that only happened much later with agriculture and sedentary - the beginning of the disaster.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #35
what a band is and what the alternative would be

Let's start with this, Bel, since it likely underlies our disagreement: What "social" organization do you take a "band" to be?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #36
Let's start with this, Bel, since it likely underlies our disagreement: What "social" organization do you take a "band" to be?

That would be hardly the reason of our disagreement since I'm using this. You can't be using anything of substantially different in anthropology.

However I entirely disagree with the egalitarian part.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #37
band, in anthropology, a notional type of human social organization consisting of a small number of people (usually no more than 30 to 50 persons in all) who form a fluid, egalitarian community and cooperate in activities such as subsistence, security, ritual, and care for children and elders.

You have a "difficulty" with the egalitarian aspect (and for good reason!); I have a problem with the genesis and persistence of the co-operation named, and share your difficulty…
For some reason, we disagree. You do realize, my (acceptance of that paper's speculations) sense of 'band' does include the definition's 'fluid' nature of a band's composition… And its essential egalitarianism?
Hence, such groups would not likely had much effect upon the burgeoning early human populations.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #38
burgeoning

Burgeoning? I love your English rococo style. :)
At least someone understands that form is so important as content.

Now, it seems that we both agree that Britannica Encyclopedia is not doing a good service to anthropology. Concepts as egalitarianism and fluidness can hardly be the most adequate characterization for early human bands.
(Have you seen the link for "difference between a band and a tribe"? it's even worst...)
Hence, such groups would not likely had much effect upon the burgeoning early human populations.

It's not the groups that have effect on demographical explosion rate but other factors that had effect on such groups, let's put that clear.

There's no doubt that such growing on human population never happened before the advent of agriculture and sedentary life. Those two are the factors that explains it and forget such demographic explosion with "bands" still around. It happened much later when we have already tribes, a much more complex system of social organization.

Another thing, human populations growth as well as social complexity are not universal things but rather localized and have coexisted for thousand of years, witch turns generalizations impossible. One must approach each region in particular.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #39
Are you implying that Yoursticism is different from Mysticism?

Re: Mysticism

Reply #40
The scale goes as:
Mysticism
Yoursticism
Histicism

Same authors insists in Oursticism but that doesn't exist.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #41
One humbly begs ersi to provide an essentialist depiction of stricism… Failing that, Belfrager can circumscribe the eternal idea it instantiates.

Me, I just think we (certainly me, perhaps you…) routinely say more than we know, believe more than we can justify, and defend more than we have either belief or knowledge of. (These are best understood as being within the realm of psychology, no? :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #42
Me, I just think we (certainly me, perhaps you…) routinely say more than we know, believe more than we can justify, and defend more than we have either belief or knowledge of.

It's a characteristic of human interaction, everybody needs to do that.
Without the more part everything would be very disappointing. :)

A matter of attitude.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #43
stricism?

Mysticism is what it is. It becomes yoursticism etc. only when you don't know what you are talking about, but you still keep talking.

There's this point that Sri Ramakrishna made: Some people believe in honey, some people talk about honey, but some people have tasted honey. The first kind of people are believers. The second kind are philosophers or theorisers. The third kind are mystics.

Ramakrishna didn't mention disbelievers or atheists. And he was being nice. It's not really kind to atheists to mention them, because by the measure of this analogy, atheists know least what they are talking about.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #44
Some people believe in honey, some people talk about honey, but some people have tasted honey. The first kind of people are believers. The second kind are philosophers or theorisers. The third kind are mystics.

Ah! But the whole thing comes out somewhat differently if one substitutes "manna" for "honey"...
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Mysticism

Reply #45



i dont give a shit about what people believe .

but , let's get this rational -->  ( Warning : it's pain in ass and frustating )

if -- mahabharata was true and really existed

then let's just  find Parashurama , and ask him about the World .

Afaik , he is immortal .

and live somewhere in earth until today .

please avoid something like : Nirvanna Fallacy


note : think irrational make us happier , think rational make us unhappier

--Choose your poison


Re: Mysticism

Reply #46

please avoid something like : Nirvanna Fallacy


note : think irrational make us happier , think rational make us unhappier

--Choose your poison


Given that rationality is conducive to knowledge and irrationality destructive of knowledge, then, as you incline towards irrationality more and more, you know about happiness less and less. Granted, you will also know about unhappiness less and less.

If the aim is happiness, then rationality, even though it contributes to knowledge of unhappiness as well, is the better choice in case you also have the wisdom and will to discern between happiness and unhappiness and strike the balance between them which takes you straight to bliss and nirvana.

Oh, looks like I didn't manage to avoid the Nirvana Fallacy after all. What's my punishment, o mighty Sparta?

Re: Mysticism

Reply #47
 what is that happiness ?


Re: Mysticism

Reply #48
The happiness of having attained the purpose of life. The preliminary steps of course are, firstly, to recognise that there is a purpose of life, and secondly, to figure out your own particular purpose. Happiness follows when you have it figured out. Then the only thing is to actualise it.

Re: Mysticism

Reply #49
that's the explanation for the present .

or for the future ?

whatabout the definition of happy at this time , at this second ?