Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

What countries have we conquered?

@Frenzie: "creepy totalitarian pledge"...? What about the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance is creepy or totalitarian?

Don't they teach you about the Spanish-American and the Philippine-American wars, among others?

Quote from: ersi on 2022-04-21, 17:17:34

I am yet to find an American who'd think the children's daily flag-worship remarkable in any way. But let me tell you that it's extraordinarily remarkable. I am not aware of evidence that even Third Reich or Stalinist USSR had this level of indoctrination and brainwashing for children. They sure as hell had indoctrination and brainwashing and it had its effects, but this did not come in a daily worship ritual for all school-going children.

Nazi Germany copied the creepy totalitarian pledge, the weird salute, and apartheid from America.

Edit: although the pledge thing may have been limited to the Hitlerjugend/mädel.

Quote from: ersi on 2022-04-21, 22:00:51

I am opposed to USA's colonialism. From the outside, USA looks like a colonial empire.

Pray tell: What countries have we conquered? Which do we occupy? Which do we administer and tax?

USA has been conquering until it gobbled up a good chunk of the continent and at least half of the Pacific Ocean.

War with Mexico 1846-1848 is a good example.

The "flag worship" thing -as you call it- has much to do with military service, here. What other forms of regional (or national)  symbolism or heraldic identification bother you so?

I have seen photos of Third Reich schoolchildren doing the Nazi salute with the teacher in schoolclass. The Nazi salute may easily have been a daily thing. Moreover, insofar as Hitler managed to institute the Nazi salute as a general greeting among all citizens, it can be deemed creepier than in USA. In USA there is no "Heil Uncle Sam" or such.

Quote from: ersi on 2022-04-22, 10:29:30

USA has been conquering until it gobbled up a good chunk of the continent and at least half of the Pacific Ocean.

I'm confused: You do know About the Louisiana Purchase, the sale of Greater California by the Napoleonic French and the purchase of Alaska from the Czarist Russian?

(Puerto Rico was likely gained -along with the Philippines- by treaty (ending the Spanish-American War...). We granted both freedom; Puerto Rico chose to remain a territory, and the Philippines chose independence; Puerto Rico retains the right still to opt for statehood — they've routinely voted to remain a territory!

The islands had been ceded by Spain to the United States alongside Puerto Rico and Guam as a result of the latter's victory in the Spanish–American War.[101][102] As it became increasingly clear the United States would not recognize the First Philippine Republic, the Philippine–American War broke out.[103] The war resulted in the deaths of 250,000 to 1 million civilians, mostly due to famine and disease.

However, the economy remained dependent on the United States.[25] As a precondition for receiving war rehabilitation grants from the United States, the Philippines agreed to the Bell Trade Act, otherwise known as the Philippine Trade Act. This granted preferential tariffs on U.S. trade and pegged the peso to the U.S. dollar.

I'll let you check on American Samoa and Guam and Hawaii... 

Can you think of any others? (That might support your charge of Empire, I mean?)

By the end of his term, US President Theodore Roosevelt "came to believe that the United States could not sustain long-term imperialism because of its ideals of self-government and its party system."

The lands got from various Indian Nations were mostly got by war and treaty. I don't claim the U.S. dealt honestly with the Nations; but neither did the Nations deal honestly with the U.S. — the peace that finally came was concluded with treaties, ending wars that the U.S. won...

What is confusing about it?

When you charge the U.S. with being "colonialist",  exactly you charge the U.S. with? Being a nation that hasn't been conquered?

Please make your point by listing some examples of non-colonialist nations...

guess we can't raise the level of discussion any higher.

What happened fifty, a hundred, or a thousand years ago only matters if it can be used to support your preexisting animus.

Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq make America look the way it has always been perceived  - as the most acutely troublesome colonial power ever since Western Europe retreated into being post-colonial.

It took a while, but you got there! How's that post-colonial Europe working out for everybody?

Let me tell you what is really peculiar to USA: Slavery. In Europe there was no slavery for over a thousand years. Slavery was strictly a colonial feature, limited to overseas colonies. In European mainland it was phased out after the demise of the Roman empire.

in USA, the idea [of slavery] was - and among some sizeable pockets of population still is - that the peculiar institution is a "natural and normal condition" of the land. Moreover, they manage to hold on to this peculiar idea alongside with all the freedoms and rights etc. that the constitution supposedly provides to everyone ("everyone" meaning true/real Americans only), and they do not perceive any contradiction whatsoever.

Sure, you ignore the Ottoman Empire. And some current Middle Eastern nations...

Your contention that slavery existed de facto in the U.S. after 1865 is puerile, and you know it. The example of Jim Crow laws is instructive: They were social class codifications -exclusions and inclusions- based on racial lines... However reprehensible, they were not slavery.

And -you don't seem to know- that slavery existed on the North American continent before the Spaniard, Portuguese, Dutch, English and French arrived; the Indian Nations weren't the Noble Savages children's stories depict.

Do you really contend the phasing out of chattel slavery in Europe-proper made serfdom a nice and proper institution? (Russia too maintained medieval social institutions, until it found something worse!)

The Ancient World's experiments in Republicanism and Democracy were short-lived.

As for America, the U.S., we have longest-lived Republic in history...

If your only complaint is that our laws and institutions don't function perfectly, welcome back down to Earth!

This is what I mean by irrational faith in America's uniqueness: Utter ignorance that it is far from unique.

Rome soon ceased to be a republic as it transitioned to empire....

That remains the greatest fear among conservatives in America: That the exigencies of empire will destroy our Republic.

Europe is in many ways dysfunctional, no?

Rome - as a republic - lasted twice as long as USA has until now. From early kingdom to late empire it lasted much longer still.

Trump almost did it

it's curious that a journalistic guru such as yourself highlights the analysis of a comedian...

As we have been tracking your analytical standards, we have come to the conclusion that according to you there is zero journalism to be found in USA.

According to me, there are still journalists in the U.S. — but none that I can name that work for major outlets (NYT, WaPo, ABC, NBC, ABC...).

You seem addicted to 'putting words in my mouth" and -preemptively say I can find your quasi-quotes myself, if only I'd search....

For example, you've said something silly about my beliefs regarding George Soros and Human Rights -that you couldn't be bothered to quote... You said I could easily find it myself! (i can find what you think I said? )
Just for the heck of it, I searched my posts and "Soros" and found...nothing.

Human rights? Another symptom of your self-righteousness: You believe everyone in the world has the right to residence and citizenship anywhere they choose... Why? It's certainly not enlightenment. It's Soros-style agitprop.

Broadcast and cable networks, including Fox News and ABC, are falling in line to carry the simulcast of CNN’s presidential debate on June 27, the first general election face-off of this cycle between President Biden and former president Trump.
(source)

I simply mentioned that -contrary to your assertion that CNN kept the debate from others- Fox News showed it also.

The outlets carrying the simulcast are not allowed to use the breaks for commentary and analysis. CNN has said that the feed will be pulled from any outlet that violates that agreement.

As usual, you don't know what you're talking about!