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Topic: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine (Read 1248 times)

Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Now i note that the USA is moving troops to base in Germany and obviously using the situation in east Ukraine as a daft excuse. NATO (which should have shut down years ago) and the usual interfering of America nipping at the Russian Federation. NATO has been making noises even though Ukraine not in that lot.

When Crimea had a referendum about being independent of Ukraine we got rubbish from the West over that even though perfectly well run and the vast majority who were Russian voted out. In the east of Ukraine the two provinces are not happy in that country and the majority Russians so wanted out and I would remind that during WW2 much of Ukraine was Nazi and had troops on the Nazi side and there were Russian Ukrainians who suffered. When somewhere wants independence and supported by the US and it's servants the NATO lot that is "okay" and if not they are tough on you. Russia is no doubt supportive of the two provinces and just as okay to be such like the West and especially American control get away with things.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #1
When the UK collapses because of Blundering Boris Johnson’s idiocy, perhaps you might fly to Moscow and get down on bended knee and kiss Vlad’s boots and arse? Clearly you’d be happier in the ex-RSFSR than Glasgow. Any Brit who repeatedly for 14 years refers to his own country and the US as “The West” obviously would be thrilled to serve their master, Herr Putin.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #2
For a young man after years of education you are routinely idiotic or of cannot face a matter drift into stupidity.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #3
For a young man after years of education you are routinely idiotic or of cannot face a matter drift into stupidity.
No denial that Putin is your master and you his slave, so.....

I bet you secretly miss the last true empire, the USSR, don’t you?

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #4
That coming from a violent and terrible state country like yours? It is safer in Russia than murder mad America,
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #5
Safer in Russia? Safer for whom?
Is it gibberish you want? :)

I'd think it safer to be on the moon,
where the breathing is hard and exhaling
a bane at best... No more caterwailing
'bout what must be called lunacy, and soon!

(Russia wants what it wants, and will have it...
There are no Great Powers now, no faction
'cept who would survive and by what action,
and of course inaction is likely... Shit,

man, canna see -so blinded jealousy
has made ya- what Putin intends for thee?)

But alas no one had the foresight to
bring even one teeny li'l' bomb along...
So for gaud and greed and guile he'd be wrong,
this Putin Russia Firster's aur-redux.


进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #6
That is head shaking coming from an America Oakdale! Wanting superiority the world has been an an in depth thing for generations. Creating battlefields, spying on countries, trying to destabilise where they will not give in to US Imperialism. Your country accuses Russia of interfering in your election but no proof - none. America is riddled with wide spread mob violence, regular mass killings but wants to be a world controller! You have bases all over the world and coming out with a label on Russia over the election nonsense. Where is the proof??!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #7
Silly me! I'd thought we were talking about Ukraine and Russia... (I brought up the moon because we've actually been there...)
But that's beside the point:
Quote
More dangerous at this time, Borrell [the European Union’s foreign policy chief] said, was the massing of Russian troops, including military field hospitals, and “all kinds of warfare.”

“It is the highest military deployment of the Russian army on the Ukrainian borders ever. It’s clear that it’s a matter of concern when you deploy a lot of troops,” Borrell said. “Well, a spark can jump here or there.”

Initially, Borrell told reporters that “there’s more than 150,000 Russian troops massing on the Ukrainian borders and in Crimea,” and doubled down on the figure later before his services had to correct it in the transcript, saying the real figure was over 100,000.

Nevertheless, Borrell said that “the risk of further escalation — it’s evident.”

Borrell declined to say where he got the initial 150,000 Russian troop number from, but called it “my reference figure.” It was higher than the 110,000 estimate provided by Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Taran on Wednesday.

More than 14,000 people have died in seven years of fighting between Ukrainian forces and Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine that erupted after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula. The EU has steadfastly opposed the annexation but has been unable to do anything about it.
(AP story)
Looks to me like the EU sees more than the Howie does in an ongoing uncomfortable situation... (Putin-filia?:)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)


Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #9
I'd thought everyone "over there" was asleep. Or perhaps only enough to cause the rest to keep very quiet, lest they wake the sleepers... :)
We shall see.

Meanwhile my president Joe Biden presumably gave Vlad a stern talking to! But a video call doesn't really enhance the threat of not sharing one's ice cream cone...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #10
Russia is losing influence over Ukraine. On the other hand the US and NATO are both unable and unwilling to militarily defend Ukraine (or Georgia or Moldova). The US technically could, probably, but Ukraine is very far down on the list.

On the other hand anything the Kremlin would do would increase the distance from Kyiv to Moscow. And the Ukraine is a much bigger bite than a canapé-sized Baltic state. A full-scale invasion wouldn't work well for the Kremlin in the long run.

That puts Kyiv in a rather difficult position.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #11
That puts everyone in the neighborhood in "a rather difficult position." But the the distance between Moscow and Kyiv is a meger political metaphor, compared to the physical...

进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #12
The two cities are not far away. Moscow is only 760 km/470 miles from Kyiv, but then again Södertälje is only 1270 km/790 miles from Kyiv.

We can draw an equilateral triangle Södertälje-Kyiv-Munich, as we can draw one Moscow-Kyiv-nearly Riga. As you can see the distance from here to Kyiv is same as from here to Brussels, and Kyiv is closer than most of the EU. Not that I, or the good people in Södertälje, are about to rescue Kyiv from that Eastern principality, mind you. 


Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #13
Moscow is only 760 km/470 miles from Kyiv, but then again Södertälje is only 1270 km/790 miles from Kyiv
Almost twice and more than three times the ancient "decline of civilization" increment... Interesting. Would you posit a center? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #14
It's only three weeks march away, assuming the Baltic Sea is frozen. And much closer on ships.

The Kremlin is unhappy among others that the Ukraine is buying weapons from Turkey. Bit like Washington is unhappy for Turkey buying weapons from Russia, and for that matter India doing the same. And then we had the Indo-Pacific kerfuffle between France, the US and Australia. 



Which pretty much harks back to Prince Vladimir, how the Rus looked to Istanbul and Eastern Orthodoxy. Map from 1000 AD:





A little more complicated...

That's a fair assessment, as in the map above. However like @Frenzie mentioned it gets more complicated yet with Cyprus and our Middle Sea, the 3C biggie, including the part you refer to as the Middle East. Turkey's interests don't align closely with the EU's, nor with Russia's.







Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #16
Could you clarify what's meant by "economic center of gravity"? I could agree with the longitude, but the latitude seems as though it would be further south, The 2025 position would be put it further north than most of the US and China, not to mention the major economic powers of Europe. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding it.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #17
Could you clarify what's meant by "economic center of gravity"?
It "involves weighting the approximate centre of landmass of a country by its GDP" according to https://www.globaldashboard.org/2012/06/29/the-worlds-economic-centre-of-gravity/

In other words, an interesting exercise, but cannot be particularly informative.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #18
Could you clarify what's meant by "economic center of gravity"? I could agree with the longitude, but the latitude seems as though it would be further south, The 2025 position would be put it further north than most of the US and China, not to mention the major economic powers of Europe. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding it.

The centre of gravity, or centroid, is in a sense the midpoint or balancing point. If you put a pin under the centre of gravity the object will not fall over.

That particular image doesn't work for the surface of a sphere, but the idea is the same. The surface doesn't have a centre, but a feature on it might, like landmass. So the geographical centre of Earth is south of the Black Sea, as mentioned above. This changes, but very slowly, over geological time scale.


We can look for other centres, for instance the global centre of population. It is somewhere in Central Asia, not calculated precisely, but reasonably close to Almaty, Kazakhstan. In other words shifted to the east, due to the higher population density in South and East Asia. As these populations are stable or falling, while the populations in particularly Africa is still growing, expect this centre to start moving in a south-western direction. Conversely Santiago, Chile is the capital furthest away from people, on average.



Finally we got the economic centre of gravity, above. This not based on population, but on economic activity. The shift towards Greenland has been due to the economic power of the West, in particular the US. As the world economy has gotten slightly more balanced, it is moving back towards the demographic centre of gravity. If African countries start to grow in wealth, as they are likely to, this will be a southwestward shift, but for the moment the economic growth in Asia will dominate.



So not only may the economic centre of gravity move closer to year 1, that centre and the centre of population might converge somewhat towards the geographical centre.

 

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #19
Orban says: „Es ist leicht möglich, dass es dieser Krieg sein wird, der auf demonstrative Weise der westlichen Übermacht ein Ende bereitet.“

The stakes are as follows. The relations between the EU and Russia cannot stay the same, they must change, but Putin is so obstinate that the relations can only change if either Russia is defeated or the EU dissolves. It's an existential battle for both and the issue is whether the EU biggies recognise this or not.

Likely not. The biggies think that the EU is fairly safe, because see all this buffer zone between Germany and Russia. That is, the biggies do not consider the countries between Germany and Russia as EU members, as countries worth an existence even. Therefore, they also will never muster sufficient commitment to defeat Russia.

Insofar as the above is plausible, the eastern EU members consider the EU already de facto dissolved. So does Orban, and he is already thinking ahead from this. He is betting that Russia will win (or not lose, which is the same thing). Despite being a Nato member, Orban is begging for special treatment and mercy from Russia in the world after this war. Other eastern Nato members still hope that Nato can muster the commitment that the EU lacks. Orban has apparently discounted even Nato, factoring in Germany's and France's repeated vision to conjure up some sort of EU defence mechanism, inevitably doomed to fail. Other eastern EU members see no other defence for the EU than Nato and therefore do their best to ignore Germany's and France's scholzing, macroning and schrödering.

If the war ends in stalemate with the EU still lingering on, there will be no way whatsoever to restore the trust between the eastern and western EU members - because it is a pause in the war, not the end of the war. In a stalemate the EU may still be there, but it will be without substance from then on. With friends like this, who needs enemies.

Edit. From RIA, facts as per Orban:
1. The West cannot win the war militarily
2. The sanctions have not destabilised Russia
3. The sanctions are hurting Europe enormously
4. The world has not aligned with USA on the issue of Ukraine

Also from RIA, Orban went to Russia for Gorbachev's funeral but Putin evaded a direct meeting by embarking on a tour in Russia's Far East.