Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Topic: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine (Read 14910 times)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #50 – 2025-02-24, 08:55:44

Jake Broe is quite thorough.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #51 – 2025-02-24, 11:09:53

Yeah, I'd trust this guy!

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #52 – 2025-02-24, 17:12:39

You can verify whether he accurately conveys what he talks about. So yes, I trust that he does a very good job with that for non-written media.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #53 – 2025-02-25, 08:56:38

Quote from: Frenzie on 2025-02-24, 09:12:39

You can verify whether he accurately conveys what he talks about.

I can verify that he quotes sources who don't bother to verify their sources... (Sort-of a Liberal game of Telephone: the spin gets more and more bizarre.^[1]

And of course you should! According to Jake, Zalensky is the Leader of the Free World...

If that breaking news doesn't cement his bone fides, I don't know what would!

BTW: Is it really possible that "the Leader of the Free World" is unaware of what it takes for a country to gain NATO membership? (Hint for ersi-types: All other members must agree...)

¹I'd wondered about ersi's "always wrong about everything" tope came from!

Of course, we might now fa a chicken/egg conundrum...↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #54 – 2025-02-25, 10:28:30

That makes more sense as an objection, although I think it's phrased in a strange manner.^[1] From what I've seen he emphasizes pro-Ukrainian sources and he mostly draws pro-Ukrainian conclusions.

¹Liberal.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #55 – 2025-02-25, 12:10:07

I'm certainly not opposed to Ukrainian sovereignty. (Certainly, Putin is...) But how to get out of the current war is a conundrum: NATO won't; Europe won't; and the U.S. won't declare war on Russia. Agreed?
So — who does what? Who can really do anything?

Who does Putin actually fear?

(We should all know by now that it wasn't Obama, Hillary, or Biden...). Perhaps a better question would be What does Putin actually fear?
Answer that question, and you've begun to understand the stakes...

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #56 – 2025-02-27, 17:08:28

The full text of the US-Ukraine mineral deal

Quote from: https://kyivindependent.com/exclusive-the-full-text-of-the-final-us-ukraine-mineral-agreement/

Speaking to journalists on Feb. 26, Zelensky said the agreement was "well appreciated by our government officials," though he added it does not yet contain specific security guarantees for Ukraine.

"The important thing is that the agreement mentions 'partners,' and this fund is Ukrainian-American, not American," he added.

I have lots to say about this even without reading, e.g. that it is obviously a colonial-style extortion, but let it be here so I can read it at some point. (And another strong opinion of mine is that the text actually matters little, about as little as the dutifully signed solemn oath of non-aggression between Molotov and Ribbentrop...)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #57 – 2025-02-28, 04:08:48

In the mineral deal I'm looking for two things:
- What about minerals in occupied areas
- What about sanctioned counterparties

These two things are aimed to answer the question: What does Putin get out of this?

I'm not asking what Trump/USA gets out of this, because Trump has a slew of ulterior motives and a cobweb of conflicts of interest. He is also a business fraudster and convicted criminal, now globally known as such, which disqualifies his signature on anything.

I'm not asking what Zelensky/Ukraine gets out of this. In all fairness it should be noted that Zelensky is the originator of the mineral deal proposal to Biden. It made some sense to propose this to Biden to motivate more extensive military support for and investments in Ukraine. But with Trump, nothing good can come of it. Zelensky has proposed to resign as soon as he gets some security guarantees for Ukraine's sovereignty signed, meaning that he won't be overseeing how the deal pans out, very likely knowing it is bound to become a disaster with Trump. Ukraine has a recent history of being a very different country under each president, so with Zelensky gone Ukraine will likely drastically change again, not the least because we failed to support Ukraine adequately and made it lose its coast and biggest mines to Russia. This is why I'm not asking what Zelensky/Ukraine gets out of the mineral deal.

I'm asking what Putin gets out of this, because Ukraine stands directly in Russia's shadow. USA is nowhere nearby, and under Trump USA is an enemy, not an ally to Ukraine. At the same time as this mineral deal with Ukraine is being discussed, Trump is also discussing a similar topic with Putin, who is right now the archenemy to Ukraine. What I suspect is that Trump provides Putin a backdoor access to the minerals of Ukraine, all of Ukraine. This is true already morally: Once the deal is signed, it means Ukraine's minerals are up for grabs by foreign powers, and Putin can, as a minimum, say "The West wants to rob Ukraine and Russia is here preventing it."

Given discussions on a similar topic between Putin and Trump, I suspect that the mineral deal with Ukraine will actually launder Ukraine's minerals (or profits thereof) to Russia. This can happen either by specifying something about the occupied areas where neither Ukraine or USA has actual access, but Russia does, or by allowing Russian counterparties participate in the investments.

By having lost territory (which plainly means Ukraine lost the war) Ukraine does not have access to Ukraine's minerals that the mineral deal is about, which would require the deal to say something about the status of minerals in the occupied territories. Would the deal consider minerals in the occupied territories as part of the deal or not? Would the deal consider compensating Ukraine for the lack of access to the minerals in the occupied territories and provide for a plan in the event of recovering the access at some point? Having read the text of the deal, I don't see anything in it about it. This means that the deal is only with/about rump-Ukraine, squeezing the Ukraine that lost the war for reparations even though it was the victim, not the aggressor. In a best case scenario, the deal would have no material effect.

The other point of concern is sanctions. Can sanctioned counterparties (specifically Russia) participate in extraction and profiteering? The deal says:

Quote from: https://kyivindependent.com/exclusive-the-full-text-of-the-final-us-ukraine-mineral-agreement/

8. The Fund Agreement will pay particular attention to the control mechanisms that make it impossible to weaken, violate or circumvent sanctions and other restrictive measures.

And this is all that is applicable to sanctions, which is just too little, because as I pointed out, Trump is negotiating with Putin at the same time on the same topic, and if negotiations between Trump and Putin will be fruitful, then sanctions against Russia are going to evaporate, and Russians will conceivably have an intermediate access to Ukraine's minerals on the entire territory of Ukraine. And in that case Trump will simply have served as Putin's negotiator with Zelensky. In that way, USA is not just a BRICS country, but more like in a status of Belarus for Putin. Quite a turn of events from Trump.

The mineral deal would be colonialism à la 21st century, potentially more ruthless than colonialism of any other century even if it had been signed with Biden, but with Trump there is no way to avoid getting scammed. Trump is all about lying and scamming. Trump, because he is an irrational moron and idiot in the clinical sense, thinks that trade deficit is a ripoff, therefore all trade partners must be slapped with punitive blanket tariffs. Trump says on the one hand that he is not going to cut social security, but Medicaid is fraud, so Medicaid, which happens to be social security, is going to be cancelled/replaced. Trump (in the person of Musk) says that vital government functions are not going to be affected by mass firings of government employees, while indiscriminately firing government employees on vital positions because he has no clue what vital government functions are. Similarly, the mineral deal is a definite and certain device of abuse, just like all "assurances" and "guarantees" by bigger countries to smaller countries before World War II were, at best, false hope, null and void even though some well-meaning statesmen gave their signatures.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #58 – 2025-02-28, 08:39:39

Trump, in his usual manner, warned the Americans what he was going to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg

The US voters knew Trump was a snake before they voted him in, but still they did, and are now getting bit.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #59 – 2025-02-28, 08:59:49

Quote from: ersi on 2025-02-27, 20:08:48

I'm not asking what Trump/USA gets out of this, because Trump has a slew of ulterior motives and a cobweb of conflicts of interest. He is also a business fraudster and convicted criminal, now globally known as such, which disqualifies his signature on anything.

New York isn't much different from Stalinist Russia, where Beria proclaimed "Show me the man, I'll show you the crime!" But you know this... You just think the label (name-calling) is enough to persuade most people; it obviously wasn't last November.
The Appeals Courts will handle the "convictions" — not to your satisfaction, ersi, because any action by malign functionaries that you share motivation with is ipso facto justified.
All "Globally known" means is that dupes of the failed media (and co-conspirators) agree to ignore reality. And the disqualification you state exists only in your perverted mind...

I wish you knew enough to say what you mean — rather then spew your insults and ad hominem arguments! But you're unlikely to reform, and learning beyond what your early training taught you would probably break your ego...
Thankfully, you have no influence over my country or yours!

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #60 – 2025-02-28, 09:17:53

Quote from: jax on 2025-02-28, 00:39:39

The US voters knew Trump was a snake before they voted him in, but still they did, and are now getting bit.

I prefer the story about the scorpion who wanted to cross a stream...

(Think Rio Grande.)
How do you explain how a Venezuelan prison gang Tren de Aragua came to middle-America during the Biden administration? Of course, you don't care...
You'd cast them as poor migrants, and denigrate anyone who thinks they should be denied entry to my country. Would you have them in yours?
(Do you even have a country, or is that a too unenlightened allegiance for you?)

The American people obviously don't share your biases. (How's your social worthiness score holding up? Can you buy enough toilet paper?)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #61 – 2025-02-28, 10:38:31

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-02-28, 09:17:53

How do you explain how a Venezuelan prison gang Tren de Aragua came to middle-America during the Biden administration? Of course, you don't care...
You'd cast them as poor migrants, and denigrate anyone who thinks they should be denied entry to my country. Would you have them in yours?
(Do you even have a country, or is that a too unenlightened allegiance for you?)

Criminal gangs are a matter for the police, and of course organised crime is a serious problem. They may or may not be poor migrants, but that is fairly irrelevant to their criminal activities, and if they were they would more likely than not harm other poor migrants. Crime, migration is not primarily the issue for the head of state, there are other institutions who have the major role.

A more serious threat are the well-resourced criminals. The very same Trump wants to invite to the US. He's not the first to add this side hustle. Malta did the same (and got a lot of dark money flowing in this way, with significant impact), as did Britain. That's why to this day we talk about Londongrad. The mix of crime, money and government that is the Trump (and Putin) model.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #62 – 2025-02-28, 11:13:54

Quote from: jax on 2025-02-28, 02:38:31

Crime, migration is not primarily the issue for the head of state, there are other institutions who have the major role.

Ah, yes! It must be left to the bureaucrats, who answer only to other bureaucrats!
No, sir. In the U.S., immigration is the purview of the federal government; but individual states have some responsibilities, also. And crime is an issue nation-wide, since a major political party decided to become pro criminals. ^[1]

Quote from: jax on 2025-02-28, 02:38:31

A more serious threat are the well-resourced criminals. The very same Trump wants to invite to the US. He's not the first to add this side hustle.

Your example is an Internet influencer with Me-Too! problems? (How did the authorities fail to arrest, charge, try and convict this (these?) scourges?!^[2]

Quote from: jax on 2025-02-28, 02:38:31

The mix of crime, money and government that is the Trump (and Putin) model.

Are you really that clueless?!
Again, I ask for examples...

Also, you should know that the President of the U.S. is the chief executive, charged with seeing that the laws of the U.S. are faithfully executed. (Perhaps you know of no other country where such a responsibility is placed upon a unitary executive?
Surely, you think such should be left entirely to petty bureaucrats: How else would they become wealthy?

^[3]

¹I live in California and know that our Democrats prefer criminals to law-abiding citizens...

But that is changing, again.↵

²I'd guess, they're bureaucrats — so they don't actually have jobs to do, until the shit hits the fan.↵

³Feel free to call this whatever Euro-crat derogative you want!↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #63 – 2025-02-28, 21:36:59

The signing of the mineral deal was supposed to take place today, but Trump and Zelensky parted openly inflamed. I submit that this is a good thing for Ukraine's sovereignty. A mineral deal with Trump would be like a mineral deal with Putin.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #64 – 2025-02-28, 22:47:43

It appears Zelensky took Jake Broe's calling him "the Leader of the Free World" to heart, and swelled the boy's head — so much so that it exploded at the deal's signing ceremony!
Whether he's just frazzled or too jingoistic to see straight, Zelensky made it plain that he won't "negotiate" with Putin... Either Putin accept what Zelensky or they fight on! Which is to say, Zelensky doesn't really want peace: He wants Putin and Russia defeated.
Is that a realistic stance? (Morally Zelinsky is correct. Realistically, he's willing to see his country destroyed... Not a good outcome, eh?)
————————————————————————
I'm glad Zelensky stayed to do his scheduled interview with Bret Baier. (Honestly! He does better with journalists than with leaders, I think. But he's still barking up the wrong tree — the one that he tried to mark as his territory earlier today...

)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #65 – 2025-03-01, 00:01:01

Typical of U.S. Democrats, Harold Ford (a Tennessee former representative) opined -thinking it was in Zelensky's favor- that if his (Ford's) country were invaded, he'd want the mediator to be on his side...
Like Zelensky, he doesn't understand what a mediator is.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #66 – 2025-03-01, 10:20:21

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-03-01, 00:01:01

Like Zelensky, he doesn't understand what a mediator is.

You are always wrong about everything and you do not understand any of the words you are saying.

What sort of mediator is USA in, say, Israel-Palestine conflict? USA is the sort of mediator who is 100+% on Israel's side. Right now between Russia and Ukraine, Trump is 100+% on Putin's side. It's the USA's way of being a mediator.

You think that just by doing the direct opposite of what Biden was doing you became a better mediator? If you think so, then actually you are revealing that you do not have that thing which is normally used for thinking.

Trump said that ending the war would be easy and he could do it in 24 hours before he took office. This is as obvious a fail on his part by his own metrics as can be. Will he learn anything? Rest assured he won't.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #67 – 2025-03-01, 10:41:28

Then Ukraine is lost... Happy now, ersi?

About words, you have the same annoying habit America's Democrats have; the same the Red Queen in Alice's tale had!

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #68 – 2025-03-01, 11:43:54

Just before Trump went totally wackadoodle in the talks,^[1] Zelensky reminded him of the Minsk agreements and said that those agreements were not worth having, not worth signing, because Putin broke them. Why sign anything that *rewards Putin for yet another incursion*? In Minsk agreements Macron and Merkel completely soiled themselves and France and Germany are still toxic for Eastern Europeans (including Ukraine) because of this. Vance's response (because Trump did not know what to say, since he knows no history, not even the history of 2014-15) was to say, "I have watched and seen the stories. You bring people on a propaganda tour..." (literal quote) indicating that Vance, who may actually know this particular history, thinks it is a propaganda version of history — heck, as a MAGA convert, he likely thinks that all history is a sort of propaganda, and that his version of "stories" is better because his version serves him.

What were you saying about mediator? Oh yes, you provided exhaustive proof that you do not know what it means. And all this without even getting into the lack of required diplomatic decorum where Zelensky had started his statements by thanking USA for their support, but Trump+Vance ended up accusing Zelensky of attacking the United States and of being ungrateful and of gambling with World War III.^[2]

USA is a third world dump. "It's a BRICS country. Look it up. You can figure it out." Kudos to @jax for coming up with the "banana republic, just a banana-challenged one"

¹Trump was completely out of line to begin with, which was bad enough, but he has an infinite capacity to always go worse next.↵

²By the way, why did it have to take place in front of the press corps, instead of in a closed negotiation room as is the historical/diplomatic norm? Must be Trump's infinite attention deficite and his overconfidence that he can demonstrate his art-of-the deal mastery of pressuring someone who has no cards...↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #69 – 2025-03-01, 12:05:04

Quote from: ersi on 2025-03-01, 03:43:54

By the way, why did it have to take place in front of the press corps

The last time Trump talked to Zelensky in "private" the Democrats impeached him over it... And, of course, Zelensky said nothing.

This time Zelensky managed to mortify his own ambassador. Very diplomatic.
He'll do well negotiating with Putin, no?

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #70 – 2025-03-01, 12:42:38

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-03-01, 12:05:04

This time Zelensky managed to mortify his own ambassador.

Congrats for finding RT for your news, instead of exercising any sort of discernment. Well, I already noted above that you do not have that thing which...

You have gone beyond a Trump-deranged Q/Magatard now. You are a fully formed Putinite.

Edit: Give a listen to someone who actually knows something for a change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaCbUtTuLhA

My take of Anders Puck Nielsen's take is that Trump and Vance were playing for their domestic audience. The main modus operandi of Trump and Vance, hyperpartisan hypocrites as they are, is to trigger the Dems. Abusing Zelensky would trigger the Dems therefore let's absolutely do it. Nevermind that this torpedoes any chance for a supposed peace plan, but then let's say Zelensky is at fault, not the public abuse of Zelensky is at fault.

As a standard strategist, Nielsen reflexively distinguishes between short-term and long-term effects. As clinical sociopaths, Trump and Vance make no such distinction. They only see the short term, max one step ahead on a good day.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #71 – 2025-03-02, 02:57:01

Quote from: ersi on 2025-03-01, 04:42:38

Congrats for finding RT for your news

I watched her reaction at the time; and, of course, not on RT.
But I'm not at all surprised to see your conspiracist tendencies finding YouTube backing — you are always fervent, a True Believer in one form or another. (And unaware of how easily you miss the obvious, when it doesn't fit into your preconceived notions.)

Maybe Zelinsky should set up a GoFundMe page! I'm sure many American taxpayers will gladly help to finance his side of the war; Russia's problem is -as I'm sure you know- that it's ruled by Russians, Russians who know that their populations can be made to endure great sacrifices... So, the war will continue, much to the detriment of all concerned.
What's not so sure is whether Europe (or indeed even a f[r]action of Europe) will enlist...

Keep in mind a phrase used by Eric Prince: "[War] is the ultimate economic contest [...]"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #72 – 2025-03-02, 07:40:30

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-03-02, 02:57:01

Quote from: ersi on 2025-03-01, 04:42:38
Congrats for finding RT for your news
I watched her reaction at the time; and, of course, not on RT.

It's easy to tell that you did not. Here's the headline from Fox News of all things, Ukraine ambassador's reaction to fiery Trump-Zelenskyy Oval Office clash goes viral. Read the entire article and you will find nothing about that the ambassador's facepalm was a reaction to Zelensky specifically. This is the same take all over arguably passable (i.e. American) news outlets and in normal (i.e. European) news: Ukraine's ambassador did a facepalm not at Zelensky, but over what went on between Trump+Vance and Zelensky by the very end of the meeting. This is also the impression that you must have come away with if you watched the exchange directly. Obviously you did not.

The ambassador's reaction went viral from a photo posted on Twitter by Kaitlan Collins with the comment "The Ukrainian ambassador had her head in her hands by this point." Then Trump's aid Dan Scavino gave it his own slant by posting a short video of it with the comment "Ukrainian Ambassador understands that Zelensky is a complete and total disaster..." so everybody could choose their sides. The Q/Maga bubblespace and the likes of RT of course amplified Dan Scavino. This reached me via Russian headlines. The take you reflected is specific to non-journalists and non-observers; it is specific to thoughtless knee-jerk Trump cultists and to Putinites who back them.

You definitely did not watch this directly. You grabbed a headline to your liking, not stopping to think if you are taking Putin's side. You took Putin's side. It's easy to grasp for normal people that Trump's side is Putin's side, but it's over your pretty little head. It's not the first time either nor the last.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #73 – 2025-03-02, 08:22:00

Quote from: ersi on 2025-03-01, 23:40:30

You definitely did not watch this directly.

I did, and I believe my own eyes...didn't need to read someone else's "opinion" about it.

Your penchant for ascribing motives to me is one of your most endearing traits! It lets me into the mindset of a certain sort of European (and Europe-adjacent-ian).

Babble on! Meanwhile, admit that Zelensky probably thinks he can win a war of attrition with Putin's Russia. Trump disagrees — which, for you, is enough to make him Putin's stooge...
If Zelensky won't negotiate with Putin^[1] and Putin won't negotiate with Zelensky^[2] — how does the war end? Let me save you the unusual exertion of thinking it through: It doesn't; or, worse, it escalates.^[3]

¹Except to accept his surrender...

↵

²I.e, his ridiculous demand that Zelensky resign...↵

³But you'll know that before I will, being in the neighborhood.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #74 – 2025-03-02, 09:04:36

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-03-02, 08:22:00

Quote from: ersi on 2025-03-01, 23:40:30
You definitely did not watch this directly.
I did, and I believe my own eyes...didn't need to read someone else's "opinion" about it.

Your penchant for ascribing motives to me is one of your most endearing traits! It lets me into the mindset of a certain sort of European (and Europe-adjacent-ian).

This is roughly a nine-hundredth time I catch you on obvious lies that somehow in your mind are not lies. You are lying that you watched it directly. A bigger lie is that you believe your own eyes.^[1]

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2025-03-02, 08:22:00

If Zelensky won't negotiate with Putin and Putin won't negotiate with Zelensky — how does the war end? Let me save you the unusual exertion of thinking it through...

We already know from Budapest memorandum and Minsk agreements how it goes if they do sign anything. I'm way ahead of you on this topic and you are lightyears behind, as is Trump with his entire team of Putin-bent know-nothings.

¹Where were your eyes when you saw the insurrection on January 6, 2021? You claim you saw no insurrection even though it's obviously there for everyone to see. An explanation: Your fellow Trumpite Q/MAGA cultists are going to kill you if you claim you saw the insurrection for what it was. You could have easily prevented this conundrum by being more careful with your online behaviour. An even more likely explanation is that you are a devoted cultist yourself, a True Believer ready to slash non-believers and apostates, not thinking that the Leader has already marked you as expendable.↵