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Topic: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine (Read 14387 times)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #25 –
https://vxtwitter.com/mtracey/status/1861854050368495638
Quote
Gen. Keith Kellogg, who Trump just named "Special Envoy for Ukraine and Russia," has said the "end game" for the war is "evicting the Russians from Ukraine," including the Donbas and Crimea, resulting in the downfall of…

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #26 –
Wouldn't that be nice, except for a few things...

When did he say it? Maybe he changed his mind by now, as seems to be required for everyone in the Trump gang. Remember when JD Vance said that Trump was Hitler? Was not too long ago, but now he has turned 180 degrees. When having to deal with Parkland high school shooting in 2018, Trump talked about taking guns away first and then following it up with court orders, not the other way round, but soon afterwards when fundraising with NRA he talked about eliminating all gun regulation, any sort of government interference with gun ownership. In reality he has done neither. All talk, no walk, because the matter does not concern him personally at all.

Another thing seemingly required in the Trump circle is to have some past or ongoing sex scandals, so that instead of talking about professional qualifications the confirmation hearings are about the candidate's sex life, occasionally ending up in somebody else getting confirmed when everybody is too exhausted to get into another sex life, not to speak of qualifications.

The news assortment in USA is insane. Right now everybody talks about Trump's tariffs so much that real politics is not in the picture. Trump is not the president. Biden is. Trump is making zero tariffs and cannot make any right now. To talk about Trump's tariffs is taking a misdirection bait from Trump. Even the president of Mexico took it, starting to explain how tariffs work and threatening counter-tariffs. At the same time Mexico may be missing out on some actual necessary policy decisions right now. Can't you people, as a matter of your routine professionalism, tell the difference what is relevant and what is not?

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #27 –
Quote from: ersi on
Merkel's memoir is out now. Will someone read it so I don't have to?
Quote from: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/politische-buecher/angela-merkels-autobiographie-die-altkanzlerin-beichtet-nur-laessliche-suenden-110133178.html
Selbstkritik übt die Autorin allenfalls, wenn es um schlecht vorbereitete Interviews oder das Rauchen geht.
Instead of her memoirs, maybe give a listen to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXbTN5vCZRQ

Just one remark. Question at 36:15, "You are very unique among Western leaders in that you grew up in the east and you speak Russian fluently. How does that help you feel for the miracle of transformation of Lithuania, Romania, Estonia on the one hand and on the other hand how does it help you understand the Russian perspective?"

Merkel answers 100% on the Russian perspective. She has no regard to any countries in between. This is a permanent feature of every Chancellor of Germany.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #28 –
Now that Trump has come out entirely on Putin's side and agrees with him that Ukraine should not exist, who can be the adult in the room? Anders Puck Nielsen thinks Western Europeans can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWLqSk4ZlN0

I don't think so. When has Western Europe ever been adult worth the name? Western Europe only supported Ukraine as much as Biden asked them to (somewhat less really). Making the right choice in this Ukraine incident was easy and obvious and would have ensured wider benefits, such as sending a clear message to China. It was easy and obvious and would have ensured wider benefits, so Western Europeans struggle with it mightily.

Just as there are no guardrails against Trump domestically, there are no guardrails against Trump on the world arena.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #29 –
are the European NATO members or Estonia willing to fight -to the death- for Ukraine's territorial integrity?
Why?

I can think of some reasons why the U.S. shouldn't, and some reasons why Estonia shouldn't. But -as always!- you do you.
But maybe explain...?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #30 –
Somewhat shockingly you do not even know the meaning of the word *source* so nothing can be explained to you. But here are a few very obvious hints.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
are the European NATO members or Estonia willing....?
Obviously wrong question. If there is such a thing as NATO, then USA is part of it, not separate from it. You are starting off with the wrong foot.[1]
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
....to fight -to the death- for Ukraine's territorial integrity?
Why?
Keeping in mind that this is a question about NATO (which you forgot because you did not even manage to formulate a coherent question), then this is about standing up to Russian aggression. For NATO, it is not a good look at all to reward Russia with another military/geopolitical victory. It is not merely about the territorial integrity of Ukraine, but about the very point of existence of NATO.

From the point of view of Estonia, rewarding Russia for its military incursions *is* death. From the point of view of Estonia, we are already fighting to death.

None of this is subtle or vague. Back in 1938 it was a bit subtler: Hitler annexed Austria without a fight and was proposing to annex Sudetenland, peacefully, if possible. In hindsight everybody knows that Chamberlain was not preventing Hitler when negotiating "peace for our time". Chamberlain was enabling Hitler and for astute observers at the time it was obvious enough before it became hindsight wisdom.

In this century, Russia has made enough military incursions so that it is not subtle or vague at all what it's doing and what the stakes are. No, this is not about Ukraine's territorial integrity, but when Ukraine's territorial integrity is given up, obviously another bigger war ensues, just like this current one is bigger than the invasion of South Ossetia and annexation of Crimea were.

The real question is: After all this destructive enabling of Putin, why enable him yet again — particularly when it means enabling Xi at the same time?

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
I can think of some reasons why the U.S. shouldn't, and some reasons why Estonia shouldn't.
No, you can't. You are unable to think and you know nothing at all.

To summarise: Your question is wrong. You are always wrong about everything. And it does not help to explain anything to you.
1 As an aside I note that you have completely reversed from your earlier position that Republicans are good for NATO, or at least better than Democrats are. This century, Republicans have been devastatingly bad for NATO, definitely more so than Democrats, and at a rare moment when this fact has an impact on you, your position becomes that it is good that Republicans are bad for NATO, because ultimately Republicans are God's representatives on earth, sole and proper. Oh, and Trump's siding with Putin is perfect and wonderful to you, because Trump is the Only True God-King and everything he does is good.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #31 –
"This is my last territorial demand in Europe"

(A. Hitler, 26 September, 1938)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #32 –
Churchill to Chamberlain: "You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war."

The above is apocryphal according to below,
Quote from: https://richardlangworth.com/war-shame
From Churchill by Himself, page 257, Gilbert page 1155:

We seem to be very near the bleak choice between War and Shame. My feeling is that we shall choose Shame, and then have War thrown in a little later on even more adverse terms than at present.

Coincidentally, the date on WSC[hurchill]’s letter to Lord Moyne was September 11th.[1]
1 The München agreement was arrived at on September 30th. It was signed by Adolf Hitler, Neville Chamberlain, Benito Mussolini and Édouard Daladier.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #33 –
We hardly need to look that far back in any case. 2014 happened practically yesterday and this is the result.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #34 –
Looking at Macron's Paris conference, it doesn't seem that anybody has learned any lessons meanwhile, either from 2014 or from a hundred years ago.

Keir Starmer proposed peace-keeping troops from Europe on the ground. This is a very safe and failing proposal. For it to be taken seriously, it requires a ceasefire on the ground where peace-keeping is specified, i.e. Putin has to okay it. Putin is obviously not going to okay it, so proposing peace-keeping troops from Europe has the following effects:
- It is a proposal, very much looks like it
- It is dead on arrival, because there is no required ceasefire and any possible ceasefire is not likely to okay any Western peace-keeping troops
- Peace-keeping may be UN, evidently not Nato

Then again, UK has to make some sort of proposal to try to alleviate its betrayal of Ukraine, betrayal of Budapest Memorandum. USA under Trump of course does not hold to any treaties and agreement, much less to memorandums, so USA is out of the picture.

The rest of Western European countries just don't care. They do not feel any threat. When they talk "security guarantees" they know that there is the Eastern flank, Baltics and Poland, who physically guarantee their safety from Russia, so Western Europe has nothing to worry about and therefore is free to disagree among themselves. They are safe.

My strategic proposal is to treat the Ukraine situation as if having triggered Article 5 of Nato, to demonstrate that Nato matters. This demonstration is required for Putin and this would have a pacifying effect on him. But Germany and France are secretly happy that USA is out of the picture and they can continue talking about Nato-less solutions.

Nato-less solutions are doomed to fail. This is the lesson from 2014 and from Minsk agreements. But Western Europe so loves to fail that they are ensuring more failure, as they already have for the entire duration of the war. This war is a failure of previous attempts to rectify the Russia-Ukraine relations, and Western Europe loves it this way.

A measure of commitment to an actual solution is as follows: Provide Ukraine with so much support in absolute terms that Ukraine's materiel on the battlefield matches what Russia has put on the battlefield. Europe is not doing it. USA and Europe (including Ukraine) *combined* are not doing it. I've heard that until the middle of last year the actual biggest material support that Ukraine received on the front was from Russia through captured artillery and the like.

Not only are Europe and USA providing Ukraine with less support than is needed for Ukraine to win or even hold the line, they are still in trade with Russia in larger absolute terms than trade with and aid to Ukraine. This is a fair measure of Western respective commitments to Ukraine and Russia and the outcome of this measure is that the West prefers Putin over Ukraine's survival. The talk of Russia as "the most sanctioned country in the world" was always a lie. The most sanctioned countries in the world remain Iran and North Korea.

I'm an amateur at these kind of calculations, but even rough calculations make the picture clear. I'm sure Western policy-makers have done these calculations more thoroughly and accurately and they have decided that this is a picture to their liking.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #35 –
Quote from: ersi on
My strategic proposal is to treat the Ukraine situation as if having triggered Article 5 of Nato, to demonstrate that Nato matters. This demonstration is required for Putin and this would have a pacifying effect on him.
Which is to say, NATO doesn't matter — since its purpose was, ostensibly, to prevent war... (I also doubt your ability to psychoanalyse Putin.)

Suffice it to say, Ukraine should in your view be destroyed — to save it!
Ukrainians might prefer another outcome...
———————————————————————————
I just heard -on a Fox radio report- that three American emissaries were meeting with Putin representatives in Saudi Arabis to discuss the Russia/Ukraine war; but no representatives from European leaders were present...
Pray tell, ersi, who might be European "leaders"?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #36 –
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say there. Deterrence is one of NATO's purposes, not its one and only purpose.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #37 –
You mean NATO's members were committed to a cataclysmic World War III if the Soviet Union (Warsaw Pact) forces attacked? Or were they thinking of a game of Russian Roulette, without foreknowledge of how many bullets were chambered? :)
What, I ask you, did its European members do to maintain a balance of forces? (That was the plan, wasn't it?)
Well, however it happened (opinions differ), the Soviet Union collapsed. And Russia arose in its place. Europe went its merry way and the U.S. failed its nation building experiments. (Hubris!)[1])

Quote from: Frenzie on
not its one and only purpose
Please elucidate... :)

Is it a jobs program? A monopolistic scheme for arms sales/procurement? A fig leaf for the desiccated  "Powers" of the Old World? A fig leaf for naked 'American imperialism?[2][3]
Or merely a retirement-home mentality for Cold Warriors too feeble to think anything through? :) (I mean, we're talking about the folks who conceived of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) and then freaked out when technology broached an Assured Survival strategy... :) Because — who wouldn't risk destroying the world, if given even a slim chance of "winning"? )

What I'm getting at is: There's a new alignment in the offing. Geography and mostly forgotten history aren't the key.
Democracy (freedom) vs. Totalitarianism (state control — towards which much of Europe seems hell-bent on adopting...) is. The time is coming when sides must be chosen.

As an interesting aside, watch what happens in New York State and New York City...
1 I said it often enough: Freedom -in the sense of democracy and market economy- aren't everyone's cup of tea...↵
2 I And most Americans I know- would reject that, out of hand!↵
3 Am I the only one who remembers the Cuban Missile Crisis? And how it ended?
Yes, the U.S. blockaded Cuba... But only after the U.S. removed the nuclear weapons it had stationed in Turkey -on the Soviet Union's border- did the Soviet missiles get removed from Cuba...↵
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #38 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
I just heard -on a Fox radio report- that three American emissaries were meeting with Putin representatives in Saudi Arabis to discuss the Russia/Ukraine war; but no representatives from European leaders were present...
So you do not know that Trump (and Kellogg) expressly excluded European representatives from participating? It's fascinating how your peculiar contribution in every discussion is ignorance of everything that makes it worth discussing at all.

Do you know at least that Ukraine was not present either? And without Ukraine I'm pretty sure that Trump and Putin actually talk about something else. For example Trump may be double-checking if the kompromat Putin has on him stays safely hidden.[1] And they may be making preparations for May 9th. Has Fox told you what date that is?

Frankly, if I were an advisor to EU biggies, I would strongly recommend responding to Trump in kind: Cut Trump out of anything to do with Ukraine. Build a European-only coalition to support Ukraine. Ukraine would be very happy to see it and be eternally grateful. It would build such a tight bond in Europe that would last at least the rest of the century and even Orban might accommodate to it in relatively short order.

The Munich conference was a travesty. USA+Russia in Saudi Arabia is unforgivable.[2]. USA is a BRICS country now.
1 Steele memo is just the tip of the iceberg, little boy...↵
2 It is very good that Europe stayed away, particularly after Trump's criminal attempt to extort Ukraine again, this time for minerals. Trump's effect is to cuddle up with Putin, thus ruining any meaningful peace. Europe should not be participating in that, should not have done Minsk agreements either.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #39 –
Quote from: ersi on
Frankly, if I were an advisor to EU biggies, I would strongly recommend responding to Trump in kind: Cut Trump out of anything to do with Ukraine. Build a European-only coalition to support Ukraine. Ukraine would be very happy to see it and be eternally grateful. It would build such a tight bond in Europe that would last at least the rest of the century and even Orban might accommodate to it in relatively short order.

good luck with that! :)
Quote from: ersi on
Steele memo is just the tip of the iceberg
The Steele Memo was nothing but slush, HRC-financed opposition "research" — in other words, a media slur easily (and repeatedly!) debunked... But it still gets clicks from those with terminal TDS.
————————————————————————————————
So: Tell me what the defensible purpose of NATO is — today?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #40 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
good luck with that! :)
Not that it will happen my way. In geopolitically simple, morally clearcut and intellectually uncomplicated situations, which is what this Ukraine war is, Western Europeans tend to struggle mightily with their choices.

Even if Zelensky remains a statesman and denounces Trump negotiating deals about him without him, Europeans may stupidly start acting as if Trump really made a deal that should be obeyed. I would not be surprised at such appallingly stupid self-deceit and self-defeat. They have done stupider things. For the sake of sanity and world peace, it is absolutely imperative that Trump not get away with this.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
So: Tell me what the defensible purpose of NATO is — today?
Tell me what is defensible about what Trump is doing now? Trump says Ukraine is guilty of the war, so all sanctions against Russia are to be cancelled now and Ukraine is to be given up to Putin. What is defensible about this?

What Trump is doing is not a peace negotiation. Trump as the art-of-the-deal man always wants something in return, and he wants something in return first. In this case, on the face of it, he is making a gift, giving Ukraine (even though it is not his to give) to Putin. So Trump very likely already got something in return. Can you guess what that would be? It is something that has nothing to do with Ukraine, but is very near and dear to Trump personally.

And you are always wrong about everything and you know nothing. Values and principles do not matter to you. Character does not matter to you. But if it has the Republican label on it, then it is holy and sacred and facts don't matter. Trump is taking Putin's side against Ukraine and Nato and you think this is a good thing. How can this make sense? Of course: Trump did it, that's how. Trump can do no wrong.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #41 –
Quote from: ersi on
Tell me what is defensible about what Trump is doing now?
You don't know what Trump is doing now... But then again neither do I. (And I suspect neither does Putin.) All that can be said for sure is that Trump is talking. He does that.

You'd rather the folks who brought Minsk X to bear deal with the "problem"?

You'll note, neither Zelenskyy nor Putin have "sued" for peace...
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #42 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
You don't know what Trump is doing now... But then again neither do I.
Ah, the lovely "Trump is playing four-dimensional chess that is over my pretty head" argument. And in a typical Oakdalean non-surprise you are projecting it on others.

Let's be clear: You indeed know nothing, but you are the only one who knows nothing. Everybody else here gets things right at least half of the time, while you haven't, don't and won't ever.

And now Trump called Zelensky a "dictator without elections". You can continue to not know what Trump is doing, even when it is in plain sight. As stupid as you are, Trump manages to be occasionally even stupider. It would be ridiculous if it weren't dangerous.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
You'll note, neither Zelenskyy nor Putin have "sued" for peace...
Not only do you not know what is going on. You also don't know what you are saying. Your words have no meaning.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #43 –
Well-reasoned as always, ersi! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #44 –
You welcome. The main point should be clear for you now: You know nothing and you are always wrong about everything. Now stop reading. Let's see if you can pull it off.

The chief twit Trump tweeted (apparently as an image, so I am transcribing this for the posterity) his effective announcement of switching sides. (Everything that can be construed as factual in Trump's post is a lie, except perhaps the mention of the ocean. For an ordinary idiot it could be forgiven as ignorance, but for a president of a country it is all an irresponsible lie.)
Quote from: https://t.co/PMcrOwXejI
Think of it, a modestly successful comedian, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, talked the United States of America into spending $350 Billion Dollars, to go into a War that couldn't be won, that never had to start, but a War that he, without the U.S. and "TRUMP," will never be able to settle. The United States has spent $200 Billion Dollars more than Europe, and Europe's money is guaranteed, while the United States will get nothing back. Why didn't Sleepy Joe Biden demand Equalization, in that this War is far more important to Europe than it is to us — We have a big, beautiful Ocean as separation. On top of this, Zelenskyy admits that half of the money we sent him is "MISSING". He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden "like a fiddle." A Dictator without Elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end to the War with Russia, something all admit only "TRUMP," and the Trump Administration, can do. Biden never tried, Europe has failed to bring Peace, and Zelenskyy probably wants to keep the "gravy train" going. I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died — And so it continues.....
USA henceforth acts as a BRICS member, not as a Nato member.

Europe, please, the solution is not to start rushing into BRICS now. The right thing to do is still to ensure victory for Ukraine. And victory is not "as long as it takes". Victory is having Russia out of Crimea and Sevastopol and Donbass, entirely out. Also out of Transnistria. It is the right thing to do because it is geopolitically straightforward and legally correct. Moreover, according to this report it is also the economical choice and still feasible. Western moronic Putin-appeasing attitude has no fact-based standing.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #45 –
Quote from: ersi on
Victory is having Russia out of Crimea and Sevastopol and Donbass, entirely out. Also out of Transnistria.
You'd do this by wishing and hoping? If you can't get the U.S. to go to war with Russia and you can't get NATO to go to war with Russia (and I don't think Estonia will...) So: How does one (perhaps only ersi) accomplish this?[1]     

Zelensky wants — what?                                                                                                                                 

(Oh, and just as an aside... :), what do the Ukrainian people want?)
1 I read the report you linked to... You know the Europe that would or could do this doesn't exist?↵
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #46 –
While apparently part of the EU is somehow still busy being surprised by Trump's unsurprising behavior,[1] Turkey's just swept in to emphasize their unwavering support for Ukrainian sovereignty and NATO membership.
1 Granted, I'm also surprised that he seems to have switched sides rather than just pulled support, but ultimately that makes little difference.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #47 –
Zelenskyy and Kellogg met in Kiev. There were no press announcements after the meeting, so it was either without a result or the result was unpresentable.

Let's recall another great visionary quote from Trump during his campaigning: "‘Well, sir, if we don't pay and were attacked by Russia, will you protect us?’ I said: ‘You didn’t pay? You’re delinquent?’ He said: ‘Yes, let’s say that happened.’ ‘No I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them [the Russians] to do whatever the hell they want. You gotta pay! You gotta pay your bills."

Trump is in Putin's pocket, always was. He announced ahead that he would be absolutely unreliable. Any attempt to rely on him is a mistake.

Quote from: https://www.politico.eu/article/transatlantic-relations-over-donald-trump-sides-vladimir-putin-top-german-mp-michael-roth/
“This is pure Kremlin — and Putin — speech,” said Michael Roth, chairman of the foreign relations committee in the German parliament, after the U.S. president called Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy a “dictator” and sided with Russia’s narrative about why the war began.

“The transatlantic relations are over,” Roth added, as he emphasized that Trump’s increasing alignment with Putin left Europe “home alone” and unable to look for the “best options” anymore — only the least worst.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #48 –
Are you ;sure you want to go with that metaphor, "Europe is a dependent child..."?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #49 –
Jake Broe gives an overview of how thorough Trump's switch of sides is. I called the Western Europe's attitude a year ago a betrayal of Ukraine (which it still is), but Trump goes above and beyond, as he often does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAlj24kZsQw

Quote from: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/23/world/europe/france-uk-trump-macron-starmer.html
After a week in which Mr. Trump branded President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine as a dictator, President Emmanuel Macron of France and Prime Minister Keir Starmer of Britain are no longer merely navigating a norm-busting president with a distaste for multilateral institutions and decorous diplomacy.

They are also trying to salvage a trans-Atlantic alliance that has suffered a mortal blow.

“This is the moment of truth,” former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull of Australia said in an interview. “They simply have to have the steel to stand up to Trump and tell him what they think, namely, that siding with Putin against Ukraine is a devastating blow to America’s prestige and standing in the world.”

Mr. Turnbull, who had his own clashes with Mr. Trump over refugees early in the president’s first term, said that efforts to charm or cajole him on an issue this fundamental would probably go nowhere. “If the price of getting along with Trump is abandoning your allies, that is too high a price to pay,” Mr. Turnbull said.
EU leaders will visit Ukraine today and there is a March 6 summit scheduled to talk the situation https://apnews.com/article/eu-ukraine-european-security-summit-brussels-trump-5738236563dfacbaf4d54a53afad0e35