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Topic: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine (Read 27854 times)
  • rjhowie
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Nonsense from the West over Ukraine
Now i note that the USA is moving troops to base in Germany and obviously using the situation in east Ukraine as a daft excuse. NATO (which should have shut down years ago) and the usual interfering of America nipping at the Russian Federation. NATO has been making noises even though Ukraine not in that lot.

When Crimea had a referendum about being independent of Ukraine we got rubbish from the West over that even though perfectly well run and the vast majority who were Russian voted out. In the east of Ukraine the two provinces are not happy in that country and the majority Russians so wanted out and I would remind that during WW2 much of Ukraine was Nazi and had troops on the Nazi side and there were Russian Ukrainians who suffered. When somewhere wants independence and supported by the US and it's servants the NATO lot that is "okay" and if not they are tough on you. Russia is no doubt supportive of the two provinces and just as okay to be such like the West and especially American control get away with things.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #100 –
"- Trump spoke to Putin first"
Is not Putin the most belligerent party? (Ask a cop or a bar bouncer who you talk to first, when you intend to stop a fight...)
"- Trump called Zelensky the dictator and blamed him for starting the war"
He did; this is another example of Trump's "mean tweet"... So?
"- Trump blames Zelensky for failing to make peace, even though we already have a serial trail of broken peace deals, ceasefires, and negotiation attempts"
Cool! So there can be no peace brokered by Trump, because others have failed... Gotcha! Turn it over to whoever would do a better job. (?)
"- Trump did NOT call Putin the dictator and also not the invader"
So: He refrained from "mean tweets" about the main party he intends to mediate between.... (Make up your mind -or don't- about "mean tweets. Again, you think this about PR, like Zelensky does.)
"- Trump's biggest gripe with Zelensky seems to be that Zelensky is calling Russia the invader and is "saying bad things about Putin""
Nope! Its that -at this point and for the forseeable future- Presiden Putin and President Zelensky are the two who will need to negotiate... (Imagine their first meeting beginning with Z.'s "Hello, you evil murdering two-faced son of a bitch! Let's negotiate..." How do you think that would continue?)
"- The mineral deal, in purely formal terms, is not a peace deal. If we are to relate it to the war at all, it is a war reparations deal (war reparations to be extracted from the victim!), particularly in the shape that Trump is pushing it, namely zero security guarantees, and as such, its terms are clearly straight from Putin"
No shit. But you and, apparently Zelensky, believe "pigs can fly"! That you get to a peace deal without beginning a negotiation...[1]

————————————————————————————
ersi: "Edit: But even this is too diplomatic. At this stage your explicitly stated view is that Ukraine is next to a belligerent neighbour, therefore whatever Trump does is not Trump's fault"
As always, your primitive logic leads you astray... BTW: Did you ;notice Trump paused military aid to Ukraine!?! :)[2]
", even when the things he does is getting the aggressor and victim mixed up"
(i.e., "mean tweets"... What would Trump's advantage be, if he made sure Putin wouldn't talk to him? (And where would that leave Zelensky and Ukraine?)
"and negotiating on behalf of the aggressor on aggressor's terms."
If you so strongly believe Trump is trying to negotiate on Putin's behalf, advise Zelensky to reject Trump's efforts outright — he should shop elsewhere for envoys and emissaries!

"Trump is, along with Putin, a colonial imperialist, and you are the apologist for colonial imperialism."
This last was of course your only point: You start with a preconceived invective — and fill in the space where others would put an argument with spurious verbiage...

Will Europe step up? What do you hope for, [iersi[/i]? (I can tell you, America is not coming to their rescue, this time...)


So: these "facts" that you think I've missed are basically my penchant for ignoring your emotional reactions to this and that... (! How dare I? Ignore your feelings, that is. Well, ersi, I feel no compunction to pussy-foot around the actual facts with such an obnoxious character...)

You know I'b long questioned the sense of the U.S.'s involvement in NATO. (You refuse to bring it up, because you have no arguments...) I think it's time for Europe to grow up (or, as I'd rather put it: To grow a pair!) If you are convinced that they can't or won't, recognize that that makes you a supplicant...
Your choice.
1 Need I remind you that the Ukraine is not at war with the U.S. and the U.S. is not at war with Russia...? If someone other than Trump can mediate -as I said- let them step up and step in with a plan. (No skin off of my nose!)↵
2 Are you famaliar with the FA/FO chart? :)↵
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #101 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
"- Trump spoke to Putin first"
Is not Putin the most belligerent party? (Ask a cop or a bar bouncer who you talk to first, when you intend to stop a fight...)
Ask a cop or a bar bouncer who, when there is a fight, you can just talk to as opposed to who you actually move to stop to get the fight to end! As was already revealed by your lack of understanding of the George Floyd incident, you have zero clue about the role of police.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
"- Trump called Zelensky the dictator and blamed him for starting the war"
He did; this is another example of Trump's "mean tweet"... So?
"So?" You are clearly insane! This is not a mean tweet kind of thing. Trump asked orders from Putin, and then presented those orders to Zelensky in a public meeting. It was there for everybody to see. Did you see it? Trump's problem in the public meeting was that Zelensky was saying bad things about Putin even though they were not as bad as what Trump had said about Zelensky!

Did you watch the meeting? Yes, I know you sent the link earlier to me, but clearly you did not watch it yourself! You are in projection mode brainwash cult bubble just like your holy God-King-Emperor Trump. And your media illiteracy and attention span deficite is as total as his.

If you did not have a literal baby-brain, you'd see by now how you fail at every fact. For every event you resort to some totally inapplicable analogy, where there is no analogy in the first place, and you have no comprehension of the thing you are analogising against, and further you are projecting as if your absolute and total ignorance were not yours, but somebody else's on a partisan basis.

It was official already, but even more so now: You do not know what facts are. And you hate facts whenever they become unignorable. You have a literal baby-brain.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
BTW: Did you ;notice Trump paused military aid to Ukraine!?! :)
Yes, I did. It confirms that Trump takes his orders from Putin. Every aspect of Trump's pattern of behaviour points that way. You are celebrating that your president is Putin's puppet. Have a good one.

Last time Trump tried to quid-pro-quo with Zelensky it led to his first impeachment. Because it is illegal to quid-pro-quo with (and to pause and to halt and to impound in any way) what has already been allocated by the Congress. Now Trump does it openly and you celebrate the illegality, unconstitutionality and immorality of it. Trump's (i.e. Putin's) peace plan is to ensure Ukraine's defeat fast.

"You are not in a good position right now. You have no cards. You are gambling with World War III! We gave you through the stupid president $350 billion... You either gonna make a deal or we're out. This is gonna be great television, I'll tell you that." <--- Only cultists have an apology for this. You are in that cult.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #102 –
Quote from: ersi – on
Ask a cop or a bar bouncer who, when there is a fight, you can just talk to as opposed to who you actually move to stop to get the fight to end!
Ah! I see you speak from ignorance!
Quote from: ersi – on
As was already revealed by your lack of understanding of the George Floyd incident, you have zero clue about the role of police.
Ah! St. George, a petty criminal engaged at the time of his last encounter with the police was resisting arrest for his last criminal act...
Do the police in your country just shout "Stop! Or I'll let you go, scot-free? :) (Of course, you -with your "experience in banking- think passing counterfeit currency is just a harmless pastime!)
Quote from: ersi – on
Trump asked orders from Putin
And your evidence for this is — you feel it's true (otherwise, you might have to think! :) )
Quote from: ersi – on
and then presented those orders to Zelensky in a public meeting
Which was to be a simple signing ceremony for a deal already agreed to — but Zelensky decided to make a public negotiation of things not yet decided or agreed to... (How did his lecturing, hectoring and attempting to bully the President and Vice President of the U.S.  -in the Oval Office, no less!- go?
What you mean when you say I didn't watch the full video is: I don't agree with your feelings, nor your warped perspective.

I asked "BTW: Did you notice Trump paused military aid to Ukraine!?! :) "
You replied: "Yes, I did. It confirms that Trump takes his orders from Putin. Every aspect of Trump's pattern of behaviour points that way. You are celebrating that your president is Putin's puppet. Have a good one."
And may you (and Zelensky and Ukraine; and Europe's "powers") too! :)

Quote from: ersi – on
Last time Trump tried to quid-pro-quo with Zelensky it led to his first impeachment.
I well-remember. Think that nonsense will work again? (Some U.S. Democrats likely do...)
Quote from: ersi – on
Because it is illegal to quid-pro-quo with (and to pause and to halt and to impound in any way
It was okay, when Biden did it, wasn't it? :) (He's on video bragging about it! Perhaps your media suppressed it? Nah! Corruption is a way of life — with our Democrats and with nearly everyone in Ukraine and Russia. (And with those who used to be Soviets? I don't know. Perhaps that's why you never talk about your local politics: They no longer allow corruption.)

Your conception of the law is deficient. Especially of American Constitutional Law. (I don't fault you for that — except for your silly presumption that you know better than I do, Because !)

What Trump said (see your quote...) was plain sense, based on reality. Feel free to ignore either or both!
I'm sure your approval will matter greatly to Ukraine and Zelensky...
And to Europe and NATO. (It must feel good, to be so influential! :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #103 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
Quote from: ersi – on
Trump asked orders from Putin
And your evidence for this is...
Your illiteracy is catastrophic. For facts I had to refer you four posts back to a post from yesterday. On orders from Putin to Trump, I earlier gave you the evidence too, and you missed it. You are useless. You don't pay attention. You cannot read. And whenever you talk, you are full of nonsense, propagandistic "alternative facts" and no evidence.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
I asked "BTW: Did you notice Trump paused military aid to Ukraine!?! :) "
You replied: "Yes, I did. It confirms that Trump takes his orders from Putin. Every aspect of Trump's pattern of behaviour points that way. You are celebrating that your president is Putin's puppet. Have a good one."
And may you (and Zelensky and Ukraine; and Europe's "powers") too! :)
Want to hear what Dmitri Peskov had to say about Trump stopping aid to Ukraine? Yup, you are in that kind of company. Earlier you said you were "not opposed to Ukraine's sovereignty." Actually, you are very much opposed to it. You just don't know it, which is consistent with that you do not know anything about anything, including about yourself.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
Quote from: ersi – on
Because it is illegal to quid-pro-quo with (and to pause and to halt and to impound in any way
It was okay, when Biden did it, wasn't it? :) (He's on video bragging about it!)
I know the video. You are wrong about what he is bragging about. There was no personal quid-pro-quo there, and it did not involve anything about what the Congress had allocated. That's why it never went to impeachment or any other litigation.

The events you are comparing are not comparable. But you prefer your ignorance.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
What Trump said (see your quote...) was plain sense, based on reality.
Dmitri Peskov managed to be more moderate in his praise. He said that the encounter between Zelensky and Trump was rather rough, but he understands that it is difficult to change the course that has been navigated for so many years now. He also welcomes that the collective West is losing its collectiveness. You, of course, are in full-on cheerleader mode for Trump's sociopathy.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #104 –
Quote from: ersi – on
Want to hear what Dmitri Peskov had to say about Trump stopping aid to Ukraine?
Not particularly... Does anyone who (might) agree with you "follow your orders?!" :) (Of course, you still follow the old rule: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc!)
Quote from: ersi – on
You, of course, are in full-on cheerleader mode for Trump's sociopathy.
Well (as I said) I'm unwilling to fight, myself, or obligate my children or grandchildren to do so — for Ukraine's freedom -let alone, sovereignty... You of course can choose differently. (I don't buy into the Leftist Nostrum "Until All Men Are Free, No Man Is Free"! I'm pretty sure you don't either... :) )
I do applaud the U.S. President's choice to follow policies that align with my choice. If you think his choice is a form of sociopath, I don't know what to tell you... (Other than I recognize your classical form of narcissism. Your petulant frustration over the fact that the world does not revolve around you is something I've encountered previously during my life; and I'll give it as much credence and heed as I've done in the past.)
You can cultivate a stomach ulcer, if you choose. Your bile won't help Zelensky or Ukraine, either....
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #105 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
Quote from: ersi – on
Want to hear what Dmitri Peskov had to say about Trump stopping aid to Ukraine?
Not particularly... Does anyone who (might) agree with you "follow your orders?!" :) (Of course, you still follow the old rule: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc!)
This is not just anyone. And it is not just an incidental agreement that you have there with Peskov. You are in total agreement on a complex topic with the particular invested actor who is in the wrong, while there is a ready option to align yourself differently or to distance yourself at least to some degree, but you are doing none of it.

Isn't it amazing how your fallacies always without exception immediately come to bite you? Perhaps you should stop deploying them. Then again, you do not know anything about fallacies so you cannot help it.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
I'm unwilling to fight, myself, or obligate my children or grandchildren to do so — for Ukraine's freedom -let alone, sovereignty...
And here we have it, a complete collapse of position within less than a week. Obviously you do not have a position. You have whatever position Trump takes. And Trump has taken Putin's position.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
You of course can choose differently.
You do not understand anything about choice either. Did Ukraine choose to be under serial aggression and direct war by Russia? (This is not a question. It is evidence how completely thoughtless you are, to the point of sociopathy as is your Führer.)
My prediction (already expressed here) is that as a next step Trump will cancel sanctions against Russia. In his first term, Trump added to sanctions, likely because in his incompetence he did not know how to not sign them. Also, Mueller investigation was going on at the same time, and he needed a bargaining chip to mitigate the condemnation of his Russian collusion in the report. This time there are no obstacles to straight-up snuggle up with Putin.

Trump already received instructions from Putin that sanctions are to be cancelled after Zelensky signs something, anything, that is serviceable for Russia. Not sure if according to Putin's calculations the cancellation of sanctions can be done even when Zelensky remains obstinate and before Zelensky gives in. This mineral deal was a close one. Trump presented it as a matter of choosing between peace or World War III, which it is not — such dramatic dichotomy indicates that it was personally important for Trump to impress Putin.

Another forecast: Europeans still express alliance with USA. It is sensible to be diplomatic on this point, but in practice this alliance no longer holds. Some cooperation may work out below government level, but Putinites in USA have hijacked Pentagon and intelligence agencies. It is particularly intelligence that Europe needs to be careful about, try to hold on to cooperation to help Ukraine as long as possible, but be careful sharing any with USA lest it goes straight to Putin, and be immediately ready to develop fully independent intelligence capabilities complete with the relevant signal technology.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #106 –
Quote from: ersi – on
And here we have it, a complete collapse of position within less than a week.
When, ersi, did I say I or my children or grandchildren should fight for Ukraine? :)

Seems like you never understood the Russian Collusion Hoax. You believe it still!  But that's absolutely beside the point:

Which is your attitude of "What's another European war? Hey, what could go wrong...? (I mean, history has no examples.)" :)

进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #107 –
Not only is Trump not sharing intelligence with Ukraine any longer. He is telling everybody else not to do it either. (Just in case there were any lingering doubts how completely USA has changed sides for Putin.)

Quote from: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/48328
US orders now prohibit UK agencies, including GCHQ and the Ministry of Defence, from transferring intelligence previously classified as “Releasable to Ukraine”.
It's good for this to be out in the open, so everybody knows that whatever intelligence you share with USA goes straight to Putin, just as I said a post ago.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #108 –
Quote from: ersi – on
whatever intelligence you share with USA goes straight to Putin
As always, you start with a snippet and then leap to the furthest conclusion your imagination can give you.

Look on the bright side: They're talking in Brussels!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #109 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
Quote from: ersi – on
whatever intelligence you share with USA goes straight to Putin
As always, you start with a snippet and then leap to the furthest conclusion your imagination can give you.
"Leap"...??? The "leap" that Trump's administration cares about protecting intelligence at all is entirely on your side. Yup, trust the the guy who piles national secrets in his bathroom... :lol:


Kellogg suggested to carve up Ukraine in the manner of West Berlin, as follows:



The image is from this article,
Quote from: https://www.thetimes.com/us/american-politics/article/keith-kellogg-general-ukraine-envoy-trump-ldjprpzxt
General Keith Kellogg, a leading figure in US efforts to end the three-year war, suggested that British and French troops could adopt zones of control in the west of the country as part of a “reassurance force”, with Russia’s army in the occupied east. Between them would be Ukrainian forces and a demilitarised zone.

[...]

"You could almost make it look like what happened with Berlin after World War Two, when you had a Russian zone, a French zone, and a British zone, a U.S. zone," [Kellogg] said.

Later Kellogg protested on Elon's Twitter "The Times article misrepresents what I said. I was speaking of a post-cease fire resiliency force in support of Ukraine’s sovereignty. In discussions of partitioning, I was referencing areas or zones of responsibility for an allied force (without US troops). I was NOT referring to a partitioning of Ukraine." Conclusion: Nothing was misrepresented. Partitioning Ukraine into occupation/peacekeeping zones after the ceasefire is still partitioning.

Where should Europeans stand in this? USA is not giving Europe a seat at the table, much less permitting any initiative. But Europe, particularly Western Europe, never took any either way. The initiative is there for the taking. Just take it. But no, Europe was always atrocious at handling its own conflicts and is atrocious at it even now.

The best the European Commission has come up for now is to use burner phones to mitigate the espionage risk that Trump's USA poses.
Quote from: https://newrepublic.com/post/193958/eu-anti-espionage-burner-phones-trump
“The transatlantic alliance is over,” an EU official told the Financial Times.
Well, duh. And the right way to handle this fact is to do the obvious right thing in the Ukraine conflict and put Russia to its place. No chance that someone half a globe away would do it even remotely correctly.

But I get what Western Europeans are afraid of: When the threat of Russia is minimised, Eastern Europe will feel emboldened, and a diplomatically emboldened Eastern Europe is perceived as a far bigger threat[1] to Western Europe than Russia's military threat. In the mind of Western Europe, Eastern Europe must remain a servile buffer zone.
1 Imagine how strong a powerhouse a truly independent Poland or Ukraine would be.↵

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #110 –
The mouse running up the elephant's trunk squeeks... :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #111 –
This is no longer some occasionally excusable Hitlerjugend talk you have there. You are a totalitarian brownshirt automaton, fully trained in non-thinking.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #112 –
Your grandfather told you about Hitler, your father told you about Stalin, your teachers told you about Brezhnev... And you learned nothing!

Watch what happens... Instead of listening or parroting what others say.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #113 –
Trump said at G7 meeting that it was a mistake to remove Putin after annexation of Crimea.
Quote from: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-slams-obama-trudeau-pushing-russia-out-g8-summit-years-ago-wouldnt-have-war
"If I were president, this war would have never happened. But likewise, if he were a member of the, what was called the G8 at that time, it was always the G8, you wouldn't have a war right now."
Actually, the adequate assessment is that the war between Ukraine and Russia began in 2014 with the annexation of Crimea. The West was not adequate and allowed it to grow. These days it is a mistake to have Trump in G7 meetings and to let him issue threats and falsehoods that he calls deals.

Re: Nonsense from the West over Ukraine

Reply #114 –
We de facto have a G6.

Trump is behaving as if the US and Iran are competing over who can capture Putin's heart.