Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 204573 times)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #150 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Quote from: Mandi on
That would make most people atheists.  Hmmmmmm.....When I was born, I didn't know anything about religion. As is true for every other human being.  Does that mean anything?

Perhaps, but as any religionist will tell you, the Spirit of the Lard was watching over you at that time and all the way back to fertilization.

Children are clueless about most things. Is it surprising that they are also clueless about atheism-vs.-religion divide?

@Jimbro
Kids are watched over by the parents. Perhaps this means something.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #151 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Bah...
Theism/Atheism is not a matter of "investigation" but about how we were born.
Destiny it's what counts.
You mean to say that conversion doesn't happen?

Somehow, even though born in the Soviet Union, I resisted to be identified as a Soviet since very early age. Soon enough it turned out that the country itself was destined for destruction. In the light of this, what is destiny?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #152 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Here's a video that might be relevant to this thread: Is Philosophy Stupid?
This video is not as bad as I suspected at first. The speaker shows a way to think about the relationship of philosophy and science, so that philosophy has a place and purpose. Sure enough, philosophy has a place and purpose, most importantly in defining and exercising laws of logic. The speaker also directs criticism at philosophy, but this criticism only refers to the current organisation of academic philosophy, not with its overall place, purpose, or achievements. And possibly the organisation under criticism only applies to the United States

There are three issues with the video itself that I'd like to point out. First, the art and science of argumentation (the structure of philosophical arguments) is vital in philosophy. The speaker does not present a single argument. The speaker's world view is atheism and he repeatedly asserts its superiority over theism, but he does not give a single example by refuting a theistic argument or by presenting an atheist argument. Plain assertions do not make any case for a world view. One such argument or refutation would have been good to educate the audience and show the quality of the speaker's philosophical stance.

Second, he cites Krauss. Even though Krauss is topical, it demonstrates poor judgement to cite Krauss favourably, because Krauss's arguments are unphilosophical and self-admittedly illogical and irrational, while logic and rationality are central to philosophy.

Third, the speaker promotes his book in the end. It's okay that he promotes his book, but he makes rather bold assertions about it: "This is the only book that presents a coherent [naturalist-atheist] world view based on where we are in science and philosophy now." No, it's not the only such book. Let's recall, for instance, Walter Kaufman's "The Faith of a Heretic" and Alex Rosenberg's "Eliminativism without Tears". These are examples of philosophical attempts at a coherent explanation of everything from the atheist point of view. I also know of very good literary (bordering philosophical) accounts, such as Ernest Renan's "La vie de Jésus" and Thomas Mann's "Das Gesetz".

In addition to Frenzie's link, the video I'd like to recommend is Intro to Philosophy of Religion. The speaker is, again, atheist, so nobody should have a problem with him. His focus is on the nature of ultimate causes/explanations, on argumentation as such, and on the definition of God. All this is perfectly appropriate to the discussion. The video contains sufficient relevant distinctions from what is of interest to philosophers as opposed to scientists of specific fields or non-scientific people, and the way argumentation works as an explanation for something.

And on my own part, I'd like to say a few words on debate. Debate is an exercise of argumentation. Debate doesn't lead to truth, but shows who can build more solid and coherent argumentation, which in a good case should lead both participants to some considerations as to their overall world view, if they have it. Rather than a way to convince others of something, a philosophical debate is a good opportunity to learn about one's own beliefs oneself. Some relevant aspects of a debate are:

- Common definitions. In order to have a dialogue in the first place, there must be some common ground. Usually this means there must be agreement on one or some focal concepts.

- Criticism is always constructive. Given that the first aspect is fulfilled, it follows that there is dialogue, which in turn means there's critical scrutiny of definitions, of argumentation, etc., which again means that there is real progressive clarity regarding the things discussed. A good opponent is respectably and worthy. With this attitude in mind, ad hominem attacks and other lame fallacies are ruled out by themselves. By the amount and nature of fallacies it's usually easy to see if there's the appropriate philosophical attitude in the exchange.

- The topic dictates the nature of the arguments. For example, when the topic is "Does God exist?" it's irrelevant for the atheist side to say that God in the Old Testament is evil and stupid. This kind of argumentation builds a case for an evil god, i.e. it builds a case for a god. It doesn't undermine the existence of God. The argument from evil is applicable when the topic is "Is God good?" Similarly, the objections or refutations of God directly depend on the definition or concept of God. E.g. the argument from evil could refute a good God, but it doesn't refute the concept of a creator God as such. Also, the demand for empirical proof of God doesn't apply when God is not defined as an empirical being, an object among others. Etc.

These two videos should beat some sense into the discussion.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #153 –
Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: Belfrager on

Bah...
Theism/Atheism is not a matter of "investigation" but about how we were born.
Destiny it's what counts.
You mean to say that conversion doesn't happen?

Somehow, even though born in the Soviet Union, I resisted to be identified as a Soviet since very early age. Soon enough it turned out that the country itself was destined for destruction. In the light of this, what is destiny?

I would say that conversion was your destiny. It was mine also, but I'm a fatalist so it doesn't bothers me at all, I just accept it.
You probably aren't and you believe you command your life. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #154 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

I would say that conversion was your destiny. It was mine also, but I'm a fatalist so it doesn't bothers me at all, I just accept it.
You probably aren't and you believe you command your life. :)
Not really in command, no. I observe tension between individual willpower and destiny. On one hand, it's wisely ordained that ignorant will, no matter how powerful, must always eventually subside in the waves of destiny. On the other, each such wave is a manifestation (or an aftermath) of a particular instance of willpower of some individual. So, the best way I can put it is that there's tension. The purpose of religion is to help cope with this tension between one's own will and other wills, and make life meaningful, whatever the particular configuration of destiny may be.

I have understood that the purpose is not to be in total command of destiny, but to find a preferably effortless way to make destiny feel and seem natural. Be friends with your own destiny, a good recommendation, right?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #155 –
"The purpose of religion is to help cope with this tension between one's own will and other wills, and make life meaningful, whatever the particular configuration of destiny may be."

Isn't it just a bit presumptuous of religion and/or you, Ersi, to assume that I or anyone else need a god of some sort to make life meaningful.  Religion would reduce my life to being created for the sole purpose of worshiping my creator for all eternity.  That is what religion offers--"the opportunity in heaven to sing His praise forever".  How many times would I have to thank God for my existence?  I honestly can't imagine anything more meaningless than that. 

Religious people speak about the wonderful spirituality of having God in charge of their lives, but know nothing of the greater spirituality felt in understanding our existence through man's best efforts to discover nature's truth.  The story of mankind is before us right now--from the instant of spontaneous creation, to the formation of stardust, to the first self-replicating cell, to evolution, to mankind today--it is all there for each of us to comprehend and marvel at.  I prefer to stand in awe and reverence to what our species has accomplished in this universe and not to some possible supernatural being--that, to me, is a much, much greater spirituality. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #157 –
Quote from: ersi on
Not really in command, no. I observe tension between individual willpower and destiny. On one hand, it's wisely ordained that ignorant will, no matter how powerful, must always eventually subside in the waves of destiny. On the other, each such wave is a manifestation (or an aftermath) of a particular instance of willpower of some individual. So, the best way I can put it is that there's tension. The purpose of religion is to help cope with this tension between one's own will and other wills, and make life meaningful, whatever the particular configuration of destiny may be.

Exactly. Tension is a very good definition, tension between layers.
The layer of free will and rational thinking and a deeper, non rational, layer that only can be perceived indirectly and, yet, it's constantly present.
Quote from: ersi on
I have understood that the purpose is not to be in total command of destiny, but to find a preferably effortless way to make destiny feel and seem natural. Be friends with your own destiny, a good recommendation, right?

What else can we do...
Yes, things changes a lot when people realize this.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #158 –
Destiny exists only when it has already happened. Then, it's not destiny anymore.  ???

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #161 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Religious people speak about the wonderful spirituality of having God in charge of their lives, but know nothing of the greater spirituality felt in understanding our existence through man's best efforts to discover nature's truth.

What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?
As far as I can tell the only 'spirituality' that exists in real life comes in bottles.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #162 –
Quote from: Barulheira on

Destiny exists only when it has already happened. Then, it's not destiny anymore.  ???

It's a convenient excuse for all kinds of dickery. A bit old fashioned these days though.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #164 –
Quote from: Macallan on
What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?

This is the kind of spirituality that can unify a world.  To be able to see that it took all the time that it took--from the combined efforts of all of us--to finally answer the most perplexing question man has been asking since he was conscious of himself.   When the people of Earth realize that we are alone in this universe, perhaps then we will learn to depend on one another and see that only by cooperation can we possibly survive. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #165 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Quote from: Macallan on
What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?

This is the kind of spirituality that can unify a world.  To be able to see that it took all the time that it took--from the combined efforts of all of us--to finally answer the most perplexing question man has been asking since he was conscious of himself.   When the people of Earth realize that we are alone in this universe, perhaps then we will learn to depend on one another and see that only by cooperation can we possibly survive.

That's all nice and fluffy but doesn't even attempt to answer the question.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #166 –
Quote from: Macallan on
That's all nice and fluffy but doesn't even attempt to answer the question.

If you don't think unifying our world to a single cause is useful then I got nothing else for ya bub.  I got your fluff swinging. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #167 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Quote from: Macallan on
That's all nice and fluffy but doesn't even attempt to answer the question.

If you don't think unifying our world to a single cause is useful then I got nothing else for ya bub.  I got your fluff swinging.

Do you actually read what you 'respond' to? Let's try this again:
What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?
Do you understand the question?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #168 –
Quote from: Macallan on
What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?

There is no single definition of spirituality.  I see it as that which leads to finding purpose and meaning in life; generally an internal individual experience that is set apart from the ordinary. 

Spirituality can be useful in providing the impetus for people to simply put one foot in front of the other along life's road.  No one gets through this life unscathed--we are all guaranteed to be in pain, physically and psychologically, during our brief sentience on Earth.  Our spirituality is simply something we can call on to help us through those times. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #169 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on
Spirituality can be useful in providing the impetus for people to simply put one foot in front of the other along life's road.  No one gets through this life unscathed--we are all guaranteed to be in pain, physically and psychologically, during our brief sentience on Earth.  Our spirituality is simply something we can call on to help us through those times. 
You have a penchant for verbal disagreement when you are substantially in agreement. It's a peculiar characteristic, amusing to observe :)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #170 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on
Spirituality can be useful in providing the impetus for people to simply put one foot in front of the other along life's road.

Spirituality is what one goes to when life is seen as confusing. A seeing eye dog works better.

Maybe if you defined spirituality for us...

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #171 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Quote from: Macallan on
What exactly is this 'spirituality' thing anyway and how can it be useful?

There is no single definition of spirituality.  I see it as that which leads to finding purpose and meaning in life; generally an internal individual experience that is set apart from the ordinary.

How is attaching purpose & meaning to your life 'apart from the ordinary'? Nearly everyone does that, wether they admit it or not.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #173 –
Quote from: ersi on
You have a penchant for verbal disagreement when you are substantially in agreement. It's a peculiar characteristic, amusing to observe

Sometimes I argue with myself...if no one else will.
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #174 –
IMHO , Spiritualism is Traditional Psychic  science .

almost same with Philanthropy --> how to be a Human .

Spiritualism also almost same with Modern Psychology .

usually it's something about Mindfullness , n/or healthy mind .

to prevent some Mind diseases like : Anxiety , Bipolar , Schizo , ADHD /ADD , Obsessive compulsive disorder, etc .
thru Meditation ,  Philosophy ,  attitude , etc.
i/e ---> Dont think , just let things happen

so the symptoms of Spiritual awakening   is something like diz