Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Poll

Poll

Beer?
[ 1 ] (33.3%)
Beer?
[ 2 ] (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Topic: Infrastructure (Read 82713 times)

Infrastructure

Do we invest too little in public infrastructure, or too much? Should we spend more on new infrastructure, or in maintaining what we got? Should old infrastructure be replaced, upgraded, removed, or saved for posterity? Who should pay for it? Who should use it? What infrastructure should we have more of and what less? Is it good for your town, country, world, even if it is away from you? Where can we find good infrastructure and where bad?

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #1 –
We need infrastructure to import :wine: from France.

Belgium started charging tolls for foreign trucks (and cars) last year because according to the Belgium government, most are merely passing through and not actually paying any tax in Belgium. Yet, of course, the roads do get worn down by these foreign trucks.

I think good infrastructure means more than just cars. The Netherlands and Denmark have known for years; Antwerp is working on a big catch-up project for the so-called Masterplan 2020 (direct link to more detailed PDF, 3.62 MB). It involves investments in new tram lines and cycling paths, with an "ambitious modal shift" as its primary aim. This means that by 2020, they want at least half of all movements to take place by public transit, bicycle, or foot. Information about new cycling expressways can be found on pp. 18-19.

Infrastructure decisions further off can definitely have a big impact. As mentioned in the report, the Netherlands intends to finally finish the A4.


The northernmost missing piece has been in limbo since the 1950s, but in 2009 and 2010 the government finally managed to get all environmental and other concerns taken care of, or perhaps to push it through in spite of those concerns.

Here's a picture showing what it looked like in 1992.

It has been ready for being turned into a proper expressway since the 1970s.

This will definitely affect Dutch traffic coming into Belgium, which also has its consequences for the Masterplan 2020.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but most traffic currently enters Belgium using the A16.


Edit 2: something I read just last week, Belgium is the worst in traffic jams. In some ways, this of course simply means that Belgium and the Netherlands are some of the most densely populated areas of Europe and the world, but even so Brussels and Antwerp are hours ahead of Rotterdam, and e.g. Amsterdam or Utrecht didn't make the top 25.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #2 –
There are pipelines for gas, there are pipelines for water, maybe there ought to be pipelines for  :wine:?

True that even walking as a mode of transport needs infrastructure, though foremost that takes city planning. There are quite a few tricks to cycling paths as well, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Stockholm have done quite well, while Oslo has failed miserably.

Quote from: Frenzie on

The northernmost missing piece has been in limbo since the 1950s, but in 2009 and 2010 the government finally managed to get all environmental and other concerns taken care of, or perhaps to push it through in spite of those concerns.

Here's a picture showing what it looked like in 1992.

It has been ready for being turned into a proper expressway since the 1970s.

[...] and e.g. Amsterdam or Utrecht didn't make the top 25.


The media industry talks about development hell, for movies or other projects being stuck in limbo for years or decades. There is a development hell for developers as well. If a project doesn't start in a reasonable number of years new people come in, or get children, and they start complaining, adding in another half-dozen or dozen years. In the latter case new people come in, or get children, and they start complaining... Sometimes that is a good thing.

Amsterdam has a good transport system, but they must have some of the slowest trams on the planet, going into the old town where the main tram terminus is.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #4 –
Doesn't make sense. The bipedes will anyway outrate any upgrades and improvements with their insatiable basic instincts to multiply indefinitely.
The ULTIMATE "infrastructure" will be looking like the following: bipedes sitting on each other and eating each other (having sex simultaneously, of course).

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #5 –
In this thread in that other place I linked to some maps of undersea Internet cables. Here is a more information dense map over international Internet routes, click on it for more glorious details and the legend.



It covers international routes, and not physical cables or domestic traffic, which particularly for the US and China is the predominant part of the traffic. Even so, you cannot be a global phenomenon without crossing some borders, this is an essential part of the Internet topology.

Pay attention to the circles and the pretty colours. The circles show the traffic pattern of each continent, North and South America, Europe, Africa, Asia+Pacific. The innermost circle the traffic in 2007, the outermost in 2012. The colours show the communication of the continents.

Curiously enough European traffic is larger than all other international traffic put together, but this is largely because of Europe-Europe traffic. Ignoring this Europe would be little more than Asia and little more than half the size of North America. Soon I would expect this to switch into Europe being a little more than North America and little more than half the size of Asia.

This has to do with geography. More than half the population in the world lives in Asia, and Africa is the fastest growing continent in the world, and Europe lies between those two. Geographically the West Coast of North America is part of the fast growing economy of the Pacific Rim, but the distances are larger and all underwater, so it would be cheaper to cable up Eurasia.

Africa is at a similar position to Europe as the world used to be to the US, most African international traffic goes through Europe, preciously little through Africa. Traffic between African countries  is most likely to go through Europe, then the US, finally Africa. Africa is connected through the Middle East as well, but the Middle East in turn is closest connected to Europe. There were no African-South American links at the time this map was drawn, I believe there is now. Not that it matters much.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #7 –
I refuse to use cycle paths.
Can't bicycles perfectly ride in the existing streets and roads just as any other user? Course they can, streets and roads aren't exclusive for automobiles.

Cycle paths are made for justifying to charge taxes over cyclists, that's what's going to happen in a near future that people can't see. Taxes and forcing people to have registration plates, insurances, helmets, and so on.
Always the same shit.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #8 –
They most often are in the street, typically between the outermost car lane and the pedestian pavement. That doesn't always work well, in Oslo a bicycle lane has often been taken as a convenient parking space for drivers with such urges.

Bicyclists tend to get into fights with cars, and they don't play nice with pedestrians either. Pedestrians mill wherever they want to go, as is their royal prerogative. Ideally you'd end up with three types of streets, pedestrian streets where non-legged creatures are forbidden, public transport streets where trams and busses have their lanes, bicycles have theirs, and pedestrians have pavement, and car-centric streets separate from the rest, preferably underground.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jax on
Ideally you'd end up with three types of streets,

I don't agree.
One type for everybody.

No one has to pay so cars have streets just for themselves (unless you create a 1000% tax over automobiles for financing roads so they pay for their needs). If streets are public and publicly financed then anyone can use it.

Horses are good and these days less expensive than owning an automobile, I don't know why no one rides horses.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #10 –
Quote from: jax on
True that even walking as a mode of transport needs infrastructure, though foremost that takes city planning. There are quite a few tricks to cycling paths as well, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Stockholm have done quite well, while Oslo has failed miserably.

There's nothing special about Amsterdam. It's just a Dutch city like any other.

Quote from: jax on
Amsterdam has a good transport system, but they must have some of the slowest trams on the planet, going into the old town where the main tram terminus is.

A new metro line is under construction in Amsterdam, the North-South Line. It might help with some of your concerns. Building a metro in Amsterdam is a bit of a horrible idea in the sense that it's a wet, wet place.

Quote from: Josh on
The bipedes will anyway outrate any upgrades and improvements with their insatiable basic instincts to multiply indefinitely.

The population growth rate around these parts has been less than 1% since the 1970s and is projected to go negative within a decade or two for the simple reason that most of the population is older than me. Russia has a birth rate of 1.5 children per woman — lower than here.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
The population growth rate around these parts has been less than 1% since the 1970s and is projected to go negative within a decade or two for the simple reason that most of the population is older than me.
The planet is gonna stay the same size, and you're not the only people on it. Others could get left with no other choice than come to you.:devil:

Quote from: Frenzie on
Russia has a birth rate of 1.5 children per woman — lower than here.
What about per man?
:rolleyes:

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Josh on
The planet is gonna stay the same size, and you're not the only people on it. Others could get left with no other choice than come to you.

Africa will normalize as conditions improve. Also, I'm pro-immigration.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #13 –
From another thread.

Quote from: jax on



As interesting are the datasets used to generate this map.

This is the road network, basically showing that we've got road traffic covered.


A little more interesting is the rail network, rjhowie pay attention.


Navigable rivers, the old-style superhighways.


Shipping


Re: Infrastructure

Reply #14 –
In an earlier thread one of the possible future links was the Fehmarn rail&road tunnel between Denmark and Germany, which is now under preparation.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XUiMncXp7A[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xYCaPJFQo[/video]

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #15 –
There's a fair amount of blather early in this video, but original footage of the late 1920s project is interesting.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9okcAR-zivk[/video]

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #16 –
Initial blather is a problem with many videos, I think most of the videos I've posted had a weak start. Maybe we should support the t parameter (time parameter, so that we can skip the boring intros).

I've seen a few 20's videos. A lot of western infrastructure was made then (or earlier, but the films/videos mostly started that decade).

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
There's a fair amount of blather early in this video, but original footage of the late 1920s project is interesting.

Nice, but the background music got a bit maddening after a while.

Remind me about the time thing sometime in June or July. :P

Quote from: jax on
I've seen a few 20's videos. A lot of western infrastructure was made then (or earlier, but the films/videos mostly started that decade).

You might be interested in this video on Isambard Kingdom Brunel.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K00xt_cxbI[/video]

Links to parts 2 through 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPvSFIqIfCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbiARGvFvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpChakF0lw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gDjim1W2Xs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIUAB63-90o

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Quote from: jax on
There are quite a few tricks to cycling paths as well, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Stockholm have done quite well, while Oslo has failed miserably.

There's nothing special about Amsterdam. It's just a Dutch city like any other.
It was part of a much longer list. Very many (most?) German cities would be on the list of "quite well" as well. 

This is supposed to be an (oldish) map of Dutch bike trails.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #19 –
Quote from: jax on
It was part of a much longer list. Very many (most?) German cities would be on the list of "quite well" as well.

Many of those lists are based more on recent improvements than on the actual situation. Cities like Antwerp and most cities in Germany score well, but realistically you'd have to rate the entirety of Denmark and the Netherlands significantly higher. Additionally, they often seem to forget about cycling beyond the inner city and the attitude of drivers.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #20 –
The Statistical Man doesn't like bicycles.
Bicycle paths are not deign of being considered "infrastructures".
A matter of attitude.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #21 –
You were spot on there jimbro. Correct abou the voice over however still an interesting video of both ends of the link.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #22 –
Map of the Netherlands was interesting and a reminder that I hope to visit the Netherlands for the third time. Will also re-visit the Royal palace outside Apeldorn as it has a special connection for me!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
The Statistical Man doesn't like bicycles.

When I can walk through this one traffic artery in a little less than 10 minutes, while beating the cars that were at the beginning, that suggests cycling could win out in time and frustration (not to mention exercise) for distances possibly up to as much as a whole hour. Plus that way you don't have to do silly things like take the car to the gym so you can cycle on a cycling machine. Inside.

Quote from: rjhowie on
Will also re-visit the Royal palace outside Apeldorn as it has a special connection for me!

I've been there once. Pretty nice.

Re: Infrastructure

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

The Statistical Man doesn't like bicycles.
Bicycle paths are not deign of being considered "infrastructures".


I suppose it all sort of depends on where, exactly, this "Statistical Man" is. In some areas, cars rule the day and roads for cars are the infrastructure everybody concerns themselves with. In other areas of the world, the bicycle rules the roost and bike paths are the infrastructure of choice.

Chicago is slowly but surely becoming a "Bicycle Friendly" city, and bike paths and lanes are part of the infrastructure as a result. Tell a North-Sider that bike paths aren't worthy of being considered "infrastructure" and you're likely to have a demonstration of the superiority of the bike over the car in city traffic. In life in general, for that matter.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!