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Poll

Should they assimilate culturally?

No doubt.
[ 0 ] (0%)
Most certainly.
[ 0 ] (0%)
I'm not sure.
[ 1 ] (50%)
Partially, or maybe not.. ???
[ 0 ] (0%)
They don't have to. :beard:
[ 1 ] (50%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Topic: Immigrants (Read 21622 times)
Immigrants
Just recently, I was listening to a "community radio" from Gloucester. What was that community? For hours and hours it sounded as if I listened to a Jamaican radio. I have nothing against Jamaicans, even less against Reggae. But you know what?
I don't like a country with deep traditions, its own indigenous culture etc., I wouldn't like to see it boil into a sort of unintelligible vinaigrette, multicultural farrago!..
Sure, the USA is a different case, but what about those 'good ole' nations in Europe? Africa and Asia can be losing their "God given" cultural identity too, but for other reasons, I guess.
So, many people from different (and differing) cultures are allowed into and enter such a country. What then? Should they learn and adopt the host country's spirit? Because I tend to think that unless that, there's a possibilty to the people who've lived there for generations to get things the other way round. Dissolution? :rip:

Re: Immigrants

Reply #25 –
Quote from: string – on

By "Immigrants" I presume it refers to those who come to a country to become it's citizens. In my view such people should most definitely learn the language and respect it's culture.

I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.
I'm not so sure about 'respecting the culture' though. Sure, when in Rome do as the Romans. To a degree.

Quote from: string – on

But I'd not go so far as insisting that they loose their root culture as well for that would diminish the refreshing of the host country. For example no more St Patrick's Day in New York.

Berlin would be a much more boring place if all the Turks there suddenly became 100% germanized :right:

Re: Immigrants

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Macallan – on
Still costs a pile of money and a lot of patience though.

It's totally absurd.
A friend of mine, working as a director for an American company here, was invited to direct some project in the USA for the same company. He showed me the size of the dossier that the company's lawyers had to prepare so he could get a residence and work permit there.
The easiest thing was to demonstrate that the work couldn't be done by any American...

I would never have patience for such a thing.
It doesn't surprise me at all. Such policies are what American consulting companies are selling to third world governments these days, as for example Angola. It seems that they also sell it to their own Government...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Belfrager – on

Quote from: Macallan – on
Still costs a pile of money and a lot of patience though.

It's totally absurd.

Indeed. You should have seen the spanish inquisition I had to go through in 2003 in Amsterdam just to get on a plane to the US.
Typical american though - overreacting & security theatre. On my 2nd trip, this time from Frankfurt, things were much more relaxed.

Quote from: Belfrager – on

A friend of mine, working as a director for an American company here, was invited to direct some project in the USA for the same company. He showed me the size of the dossier that the company's lawyers had to prepare so he could get a residence and work permit there.
The easiest thing was to demonstrate that the work couldn't be done by any American...

That's beyond ridiculous.

Quote from: Belfrager – on

I would never have patience for such a thing.

Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.

Quote from: Belfrager – on

It doesn't surprise me at all. Such policies are what American consulting companies are selling to third world governments these days, as for example Angola. It seems that they also sell it to their own Government...

Institutionalized paranoia. Security theatre. Harass regular travellers in order to somehow get the illegal ones.
 

Re: Immigrants

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Macallan – on
I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

You want people to speak the language properly? Offer free language courses. And don't forget about night courses. Most of these people have work to do during the day.

Legal immigration is already practically impossible. Yet they want to make it even harder. It's insane and it would be our downfall if we didn't have intra-EU immigration.

Quote from: Macallan – on
Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.

It was still that way in 2008. I think it was in '09 when they changed things. They gave me a visa for free then, which expired two years ago. Next time I'll have to pay via credit card. Honestly, these people want to kill tourism. I'm not going to beg just so I can spend my money in the US.

The questions they ask are incredibly idiotic, myopic nonsense.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Macallan – on
Institutionalized paranoia. Security theatre.

That's half of the problem, the other half being consulting business.

People are not realizing how much consulting business is affecting their lives, rights and freedoms.
Policies, business and economical activities all over the world are being defined by consultant companies. The same consultant companies.
Banking, Insurance, Government processes, everything is being defined by the same guys.

The more institutionalized paranoia and security theater makes part of people's life the more governments hires consulting companies. Immigration regulations are the perfect place to do experiments, nobody has no one to complain about.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Frenzie – on

Quote from: Macallan – on
I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

Well, they were able to communicate with employers, authorities etc. in some way.
( you don't seriously expect me to disagree with you on this one, do you? :p )

Quote from: Frenzie – on

Quote from: Macallan – on
Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.

It was still that way in 2008. I think it was in '09 when they changed things. They gave me a visa for free then, which expired two years ago. Next time I'll have to pay via credit card. Honestly, these people want to kill tourism. I'm not going to beg just so I can spend my money in the US.

These days you even need a passport to get to Canada. And not because the Canadians want it :faint:

Quote from: Frenzie – on

The questions they ask are incredibly idiotic, myopic nonsense.

Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #31 –
Quote from: Frenzie – on

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

You want people to speak the language properly? Offer free language courses. And don't forget about night courses. Most of these people have work to do during the day.

Some Norwegians were annoyed by an ad for construction workers where there was a language requirement, the applicants had to speak fluent Polish. That made perfect sense, Poles is probably the greatest group of construction workers in Norway, unfortunately very few Norwegians without Polish ancestry speak that language.

Then again, they were reconstructing my building in Oslo recently, the workers were Polish, Swedish, and Norwegian, and they got the job done just fine. The foreman was British I guess, but spoke fluent Norwegian with just a trace of an accent.

In Prague I've known foreigners over decades, a few get completely fluent, some get to a decent level, some pass by, many have just a rudimentary command of Czech, and a few don't even have that. European and North American immigrants mostly speak English well, but Asian immigrants may not necessarily (some of these speak Russian though). Ukrainians have the same roles in the Czech Republic as Poles have in Norway. The children are all speaking Czech well, and usually a couple more languages as well.

That said, not speaking Czech puts them at a significant disadvantage, and Czech Bureacratese is brutal.

Norway has reduced their language service, which I consider somewhat idiotic. If anyone is willing to learn Norwegian that should be encouraged, it's not exactly the most popular language in the world. Though in typical Norwegian fashion they have made the language classes as expensive for the state as possible.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Macallan – on
Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

Not just on the forms, but also at the border itself. How much money do you have on you? How many credit cards do you have? You answer truthfully (about $50, I think; one credit card), but what on earth is behind asking that? Everybody knows ATMs in the country of destination are the best way to get the local currency*, and only in the US do they have this ludicrous idea that credit is a good thing on general principle. Also, some of the questions seemed to imply I might want to remain in the US illegally. Why on earth would I want to stay illegally when in a worst case scenario I can get significantly better welfare at home?

Basically, there is this Visa Waiver Program. If you charge me for this Visa Waiver, it's just a visa by another name. If you ask me all kinds of stupid questions, it's just a visa by another name. Visas themselves are probably a Bad Thing, but I suggest not giving me the visa experience if you claim to waive my visa.

* Although in the US the banks charge for it, so perhaps that's not actually true in this particular instance. On the other hand, why would I want to carry $1000 or more all at once.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Frenzie – on

Quote from: Macallan – on
Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

Not just on the forms, but also at the border itself. How much money do you have on you? How many credit cards do you have? You answer truthfully (about $50, I think; one credit card), but what on earth is behind asking that?

Probably just to make you uncomfortable and see how you respond. Then again, I'm probably giving them too much credit :right:

Quote from: Frenzie – on

Everybody knows ATMs in the country of destination are the best way to get the local currency*, and only in the US do they have this ludicrous idea that credit is a good thing on general principle.

Indeed. Why pay exchange offices which likely charge more than an ATM?

Quote from: Frenzie – on

Also, some of the questions seemed to imply I might want to remain in the US illegally. Why on earth would I want to stay illegally when in a worst case scenario I can get significantly better welfare at home?

And why would you tell them if you did?

Quote from: Frenzie – on

* Although in the US the banks charge for it, so perhaps that's not actually true in this particular instance. On the other hand, why would I want to carry $1000 or more all at once.

Depends on the bank. Some charge more, others charge less, Washington Mutual used to charge nothing.
And of course you'd carry a wad of cash just to look suspicious :right:

Re: Immigrants

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Macallan – on
Probably just to make you uncomfortable and see how you respond. Then again, I'm probably giving them too much credit

Probably. :D

Quote from: Macallan – on
And why would you tell them if you did?

These underpaid near-minimum wage employees are obviously well-trained in microexpressions. :right:

Re: Immigrants

Reply #36 –
What does being a citizen even have to do with having a driver's license?

Re: Immigrants

Reply #37 –
When it becomes an automatic registration to vote, and no means of checking citizenship is allowed...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Immigrants

Reply #38 –
The former isn't applicable in Tennessee and the latter isn't applicable anywhere on Earth.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #39 –
Since the "Motor Voter" Act (a federal mandate) passed, DMVs (and all state social services applications) must include the option to register to vote...
Currently, a mere check box mark affirming one is a citizen is all that's required for the registration to proceed.
No documentation is required.

Enter the Republican bill to require some documentation.

The SAVE Act passed the House, 221 to 119 on 7/11/24. Biden promised to veto the bill if it reaches his desk. Oddly enough, since five -Five, I say! - Democrats voted for it, that makes it *bi-partisan* according to Administration reckoning... :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Immigrants

Reply #40 –
To get a driver's license somewhere, you need to be a resident. If you're a resident, all that information is already known about you because it's part of the process of becoming a resident. What you need is proof that you're you. Generally said proof also happens to include whether you're a citizen or an alien of some sort, but it's fairly immaterial if it does or doesn't. There are many things not listed on your driver's license or ID that take mere seconds to find out with your driver's license or ID.

Someone who checks a box who's not a citizen is not an eligible applicant. They will not be registered.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #41 –
Case in point, here's what you need to get a driver's license in Tennessee:
Quote from: https://www.tn.gov/safety/driver-services/classd/dlnew.html
Your current license, a certified copy of your driving record or other acceptable ID.
If you do not have your current out-of-state license and apply for a Tennessee license with a certified copy of your driving record, known as a Motor Vehicle Record (MVR), it must be original, not a copy, and issued no more than 30 days prior to your application date.
Proof of Citizenship/Lawful Permanent Residency or Proof of Temporary Legal Presence
If there has been a name change from the Proof of Citizenship/Lawful Permanent Residency or Proof of Temporary Legal Presence presented, a certified legal document(s) supporting the name change must also be presented. Examples of supporting documents include a court order, marriage certificate, or divorce decree.
Two (2) Proof of Tennessee Residency documents with your name and residential address. A P.O. BOX will not be accepted. Documents must be current and dated within last four (4) months.
Proof of full Social Security Number - Social Security Card, W-2 (within last 12 months), payroll check stub, 1099 (within last 12 months)

Re: Immigrants

Reply #42 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on
Since the "Motor Voter" Act (a federal mandate) passed, DMVs (and all state social services applications) must include the option to register to vote...
Currently, a mere check box mark affirming one is a citizen is all that's required for the registration to proceed.
No documentation is required.
The hidden assumption here is that non-citizens can register to vote and cast their vote with impunity. This assumption is false. In reality, the right to vote is checked against other records when you register to vote — registration to vote is an application that may be granted or denied —, and registration to vote may be checked in connection with other procedures, so there is no voting without registration.

However, Republicans assume there to be impunity in illegal voting and therefore they often register themselves in multiple jurisdictions in order to attempt voting multiple times and it does not deter them that they are found out https://www.reuters.com/world/us/former-trump-aide-meadows-registered-vote-three-states-simultaneously-washpost-2022-04-22/

Re: Immigrants

Reply #43 –
Quote from: ersi – on
However, Republicans assume there to be impunity in illegal voting and therefore they often register themselves in multiple jurisdictions in order to attempt voting multiple times and it does not deter them that they are found out
Right, that's similar to how I can decide whether I register to vote for the European elections in Belgium or the Netherlands. If I did it in both countries it might potentially "work out" for a few weeks until one or both of them got mad at me after comparing registries. If I weren't a citizen of an EU country but merely a resident I wouldn't be able to do any such thing in the first place.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #44 –
To reiterate the basics that probably apply everywhere in the world:
- Citizenship is required for voting
- When you vote non-locally (somewhere else than where you live), there is paperwork involved

As an additional complexity in Estonia and Latvia at least, mere residents (i.e. foreigners or stateless people with residence permit) can vote in municipal elections. Municipal elections are particular to your place of residence. And instead of registration to vote, all citizens/residents receive an invitation to vote to their mailbox. The authorities know who their citizens and residents are.

In USA there are some differences between states. In most states:
- To be able to vote, you need to pro-actively register to vote by a deadline ahead of every elections. The procedure involves ID-ing paperwork
- You often register to vote with a particular party, which essentially makes you a delegate for the party, not an impartial voter the way it is in mainland Europe

Complete freedom to vote as understood in Europe, i.e. no prior registration to become eligible to vote, applies, according to Wikipedia, only in North Dakota, but there you "must provide identification and proof of entitlement to vote". (Question: Will "entitlement to vote" automatically arrive to state residents' mailbox ahead of elections or do you have to get busy to obtain it?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_registration_in_the_United_States

Taking a look at the Safeguard American Voter Eligibility (SAVE) Act, it can be seen that it is stupid:
- Current safeguards against illegal voting have been examined and found sufficient already, i.e. the problem it proposes to solve does not exist.
- The proposed safeguards are already in place in at least 36 states
- The regulation can be overinterpreted to drown particular voter types with additional documentation requirements in order to prevent them from voting, which is also already in effect in a good number of jurisdictions
- No state constitution or law allows non-citizens to vote in federal elections. Some states (notably DC) allow non-citizens to vote in municipal elections.

The SAVE Act may conceivably provide federal uniformity in federal elections, but the problem is that that's regulation and Republicans normally hate regulation, so it is easy to see that there are ulterior motives with the Act. Usually Republicans advocate state rights instead of more rigorous federal regulation.

Clearly, Republicans rely heavily on their voters being total doofuses.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #46 –
Quote from: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doctor-email-immigration-leave-country-rcna201698
Lisa Anderson, a physician from Cromwell, Connecticut, told NBC Connecticut on Wednesday that she recently received a letter from the Department of Homeland Security telling her, “It is time for you to leave the United States."

But Anderson, 58, was born in Pennsylvania and is a U.S. citizen.

Anderson has been carrying her U.S. passport on her at all times since receiving the email and is seeking an immigration attorney.
I will have to look up how long it took Hitler to turn totalitarian against own citizens. It certainly must have taken at least a year or two, whereas with Trump we are still in less than a 100 days.

Oh, sorry, I remember now that Trump had a prior four-year stint. And Americans looked at it and thought, Yup, more of that thank you very much. And "They are eating the pets!" certainly helped it along.

If there is someone out there who still does not think of Americans as brainwashed xenophobes, it is long overdue to get a reality check. The fact that they have no overview of who their citizens are makes it worse, not better.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #47 –
Quote from: ersi – on
Oh, sorry, I remember now that Trump had a prior four-year stint.
I was just reading this article saying Orbán, Erdogan and Modi took 10 years to do what took Trump 3 months and that was my first thought: he also started about a decade ago.

Quote from: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2025/04/18/de-amerikaanse-democratie-sterft-niet-in-de-voorspelde-duisternis-maar-op-klaarlichte-dag-a4890503
An important detail in the breakdown of the rule of law, the professor emphasizes, is Trump's attack on the law firms that assisted his political opponents. "That's of enormous importance, because the courts can't act against the government until someone files a case. And to do that successfully, in the American system, you need those big law firms. If those no longer dare take cases from people whose rights are being violated, there are no limits to what the government can do."

Lindberg's conclusion: the U.S. is changing before our eyes from a democracy to an "electoral autocracy. “In this, multi-party elections are still held, and on paper there is media freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of association, but in practice all of that has been undermined to the point where you can no longer speak of democracy.”

It's the familiar process from Orbán's Hungary, Erdogan's Turkey, and Modi's India. But the big difference is that in the U.S. it happens much faster. Lindberg: “What they did in 10 years, Trump does in three months.”

Re: Immigrants

Reply #48 –
There is an aspect that I think always made it easier for USA to go authoritarian: The head of state and the head of government are the same person by the constitution. In every other country the president and prime minister are different posts, so there is more maneuvering to be done when you want to make the regime authoritarian, but in the constitution of USA dictatorial powers were always there for the taking.

[Checking Wikipedia:] Hitler had at least nine months of maneuvering with and around other party leaders and politicians in 1932. Hindenburg opposed him, but finally appointed him the chancellor in January 1933 after other candidates did not get parliamentary support. Reichstag fire occurred in February 1933, ushering in emergency measures and suppression of communists. New elections, rigged by Hitler's brownshirts, took place in March and the Ermächtigungsgesetz passed the parliament (making the parliament irrelevant) the same month with Hitler promising that Hindenburg would retain his powers. In August Hindenburg died and Hitler took his post to himself, becoming Führer und Reichskanzler.

In comparison, Trump literally became the dictator on day one of his second term. Due to hyperpartisan polarisation in the Congress with the majority on his side, Trump does not need an Ermächtigungsgesetz. And there is no other senior politician to be pushed aside. The Congress gave up its powers at the very moment when Trump took office, as evidenced by non-action when Trump paused the normal budget flow, cancelled USAID and issued the executive order against birthright citizenship (all at least partly legislative matters, none of it within the executive powers). And now he is busy siding with Putin (having obviated Nato), declaring and postponing 100+% tariffs, deporting doesn't-care-who, he declares law firms and media outlets treasonous, ignores court orders and lies about their content. And he golfs every weekend with Saudis and oligarchs who pay to golf with him (blatant conflict of interest that nobody is calling out). Is there anything more to be added to make his power more complete? I guess not. At the point when you arbitrarily start targeting own citizens for no reason, citizens who only minded their own lives thus far, it's totalitarian tyranny.

Re: Immigrants

Reply #49 –
Quote from: ersi – on
[Checking Wikipedia:] Hitler had at least nine months of maneuvering with and around other party leaders and politicians in 1932.
Von Papen (vice-chancellor and fairly important with regard to Hitler's initial appointment in '33) was even acquitted of all charges after the war, on account of leaving the government and becoming anti-Nazi pretty quickly.