The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 362649 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #950 – 2016-04-21, 05:45:12

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-04-20, 22:40:31

Poor Frenzie... The Comunist Party can give and take, not you.

Pretty sure I covered that in the next sentence or two.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #951 – 2016-04-21, 06:20:40

There's an "academic" reading of ideologies and an actual history… Just sayin'…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #952 – 2016-04-21, 07:08:22

If you raised any specific objections we could see whether I actually failed to address them and both of us might learn something in the process. Just saying'…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #953 – 2016-04-21, 14:31:08

Just saying, "Just saying".

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #954 – 2016-04-21, 21:23:59

Well, to put it mildly: Every time "communism" has been tried involving more than a few score of people, millions have died… Does that not teach you something about your academic definition?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #955 – 2016-04-21, 22:38:13

Spot on there OakdaleFTL

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #956 – 2016-04-21, 22:44:12

Glad we can agree on some things, RJ… (Have you seen my post in the Guns thread?

Wouldn't you agree?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #957 – 2016-04-22, 09:00:31

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-21, 21:23:59

Well, to put it mildly: Every time "communism" has been tried involving more than a few score of people, millions have died… Does that not teach you something about your academic definition?

No, unfortunately it just teaches me the complete absence of any interaction with my purposefully provocatively phrased argument.

First I gave a "pure" definition of communism,^[1] in the sentence quoted by Belfrager.

Quote

In communism, as the name itself says, your resources are in a commons. You can just give and take from the commons as you please.

The very next sentence read:

Quote

The reason communism fails is that there is too little giving, although it can be sustained by forcing people to give through totalitarianism (emphases added).

Your supposed objection is practically the crux of my argument.

¹Call it academic if you will.↵

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #958 – 2016-04-22, 11:27:27

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-20, 09:09:20

In communism, as the name itself says, your resources are in a commons. You can just give and take from the commons as you please. The reason communism fails is that there is too little giving, although it can be sustained by forcing people to give through totalitarianism.

That's a very arbitrary explanation.

I don't blame you therefore. It's probably what you left with after your study and after reading some books.
Resources in commons in a socialist aka communist country:
Let's take a forest as an example. It was in theory public property. Imagine what would have happened to somebody if he would have been caught stealing wood and telling that he is just taking his part of public property.

Let's take another example. All factories where considered in theory belonging to the working class. Imagine what would have happened to a worker caught stealing some goods from the factory and claiming that he is just taking his small part of the working class property.
It was not the lack of regulations why 'communism' (communism was meant to be the final stage of socialism - something that was never achieved) failed and was doomed to fail.

As Sang points out, it was first of all the ideologically driven economic policy which brought 'communism' to a halt. An ideology (in this case the communist one) based on utopian assumptions.
IMO, best example for how socialism can work was Skandinavia.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-20, 09:09:20

Capitalism is regulation.

In other words, all people should benefit from the generated wealth.
If (de)regulations are dictated by big money and their lobby (be it in Washington or Brussels) then they become a farce.
What we finally get: the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, social tensions and a totalitarian system which takes care of all...

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #959 – 2016-04-22, 11:30:58

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-21, 21:23:59

Well, to put it mildly: Every time "communism" has been tried involving more than a few score of people, millions have died… Does that not teach you something about your academic definition?

Is "communism" the only ideology which for millions of people had to die?
Think about it. It shouldn't be so hard. Many of the wars and killings took place during your lifetime...

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #960 – 2016-04-22, 12:13:42

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-22, 11:27:27

Let's take a forest as an example. It was in theory public property. Imagine what would have happened to somebody if he would have been caught stealing wood and telling that he is just taking his part of public property.
Let's take another example. All factories where considered in theory belonging to the working class. Imagine what would have happened to a worker caught stealing some goods from the factory and claiming that he is just taking his small part of the working class property.
It was not the lack of regulations why 'communism' (communism was meant to be the final stage of socialism - something that was never achieved) failed and was doomed to fail.

Although you present it as a disagreement, you're simply expanding on the last sentence of what you quoted. To be clear, I wrote down the argument from a Republican point of view. I'll break it down into its components, because when everyone fails to understand what I'm saying I suppose it must be my fault.

1. Communist policies are unsustainable, except through force.
2. Many Republicans advocate certain communist policies.
3. Capitalist policies avoid the problems with communist policies, because they are largely self-regulating.

1, 2, 3 => Republicans should be consistent about advocating capitalist policies.

On the first premise, everyone seems to be in total agreement, in spite of some serious reading comprehension issues. Premise two is supposed to be the provocative one, to make you think. Yet it is premise three which is probably on the shakiest grounds.

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-22, 11:27:27

In other words, all people should benefit from the generated wealth.
If (de)regulations are dictated by big money and their lobby (be it in Washington or Brussels) then they become a farce.

I would probably agree, but unlike with the above bit about communism this isn't in agreement with what I wrote, or at the very least it isn't a paraphrase.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #961 – 2016-04-22, 21:26:05

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-22, 12:13:42

On the first premise, everyone seems to be in total agreement, in spite of some serious reading comprehension issues. Premise two is supposed to be the provocative one, to make you think. Yet it is premise three which is probably on the shakiest grounds.

You miss what really matters, the prohibition of private property as being the communist basis.
That's the first reason of the communism failure, being contra-natura. The second one, being a system that (by the same reason) couldn't offer as much reward to effort as capitalism can do.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #962 – 2016-04-23, 06:59:48

I said communism fails because there's too much taking and too little giving. The reason why this flaw manifests itself isn't relevant to my argument, only whether or not it occurs. So yes, I didn't mention it on purpose. Incidentally, is contra-natura Portuguese/Spanish for unnatural or does it have the same kind of possibly religions overtones as antinatural?

In any case, while I was trying to be provocative through using the word communism, clearly I misjudged just how provocative that would be. I merely indicated the (simplified, but not at all unusual or strange!) definition of communism I was using. Taking that, I developed the (presumably unusual) argument for how many a Republican advocates communist policies.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #963 – 2016-04-23, 08:53:52

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-23, 06:59:48

In any case, while I was trying to be provocative through using the word communism, clearly I misjudged just how provocative that would be.

I for one didn't find it provocative, just simply incorrect. As absurd as when Reps call some Democrats 'communists'.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-23, 06:59:48

I developed the (presumably unusual) argument for how many a Republican advocates communist policies.

A rather far fetched construction than a "presumably unusual" one.
Whether you agree or not, at least this should be cleared out by now.

Furthemore it's naive to think that Republicans and Democrats are advocating two different kinds of economic systems.
Best example is Hillary the (most probably) nominee of the Democrats. She is lobbying for a deregulated unleashed turbo capitalism.
The charming lady would fit perfectly as a Republican nominee if she would only exchange her party membership card.

I couldn't care less about all these if there wouldn't be an "if".
For different reasons (...), the USA has a vast influence on Europe and how things evolve here.

BTW,
do you remember G.W.Bush? He was perceived by most Germans as a harmfull idiot.
Then came Obama and most Germans were naive enough to get impressed by his rhetoric. Do you know how most Germans see Obama since?

What many Germans will still have to realize is that both Bush and Obama were the exponents of the same establishment.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #964 – 2016-04-23, 09:22:50

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 08:53:52

I for one didn't find it provocative, just simply incorrect. As absurd as when Reps call some Democrats 'communists'.

I did sort of say that originally, mea culpa, but I think I sufficiently clarified that I was calling a very specific policy communist. Communist or not (and by the definition I used it is), it definitely isn't capitalist in lieu of any kind of market.

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 08:53:52

Furthemore it's naive to think that Republicans and Democrats are advocating two different kinds of economic systems.

I did not say that. But different sides of the same coin can still be quite different in select areas even if they're roughly the same overall.

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 08:53:52

do you remember G.W.Bush? He was perceived by most Germans as a harmfull idiot.
Then came Obama and most Germans were naive enough to get impressed by his rhetoric. Do you know how most Germans see Obama since?

I suspect most Germans still think Obama is a much better president than Bush, your personal circle of friends notwithstanding.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #965 – 2016-04-23, 09:33:05

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 00:53:52

[…] Hillary the (most probably) nominee of the Democrats. She is lobbying for a deregulated unleashed turbo capitalism.

Apparently, Crack Cocaine has made a major landfall in Germany…

There's no other explanation I can think of for this statement.
How's Merkel doin"…?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #966 – 2016-04-23, 10:59:27

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-23, 09:22:50

I suspect most Germans still think Obama is a much better president than Bush, your personal circle of friends notwithstanding.

Your guesswork and my personal circle of friends are both totally irrelevant.
Besides, "a better president" to whom? After all we are talking about the US President and not (yet) a President of the world.

Fact is, the USA had more credit among Germans during the Bush era than it has now.
I'll give you just a link to a FAZ article.
The FAZ like all other big news outlets here can be confidently considered a transatlantic cornet. So you can blame the FAZ for anything except for being US critical.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #967 – 2016-04-23, 11:19:26

The person of the year?

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-23, 09:33:05

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 00:53:52
[…] Hillary the (most probably) nominee of the Democrats. She is lobbying for a deregulated unleashed turbo capitalism.
Apparently, Crack Cocaine has made a major landfall in Germany… There's no other explanation I can think of for this statement.
How's Merkel doin"…?

The person of the year?

She is doing much better than I guess Krake would like, but then he's evidently no fan of guessworkers.

Back on topic this is not an election like most others. That Clinton would be the only conservative candidate in the running was not something I had expected. Wonder if whoever becomes president this time will be reelected in 2020?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #968 – 2016-04-23, 11:55:10

Quote from: jax on 2016-04-23, 11:19:26

The person of the year?

She is doing much better than I guess Krake would like, but then he's evidently no fan of guessworkers.

No, indeed I'm not a fan neither of guesswork, nor of trolling.

Person of the year?
For sure she is - abroad. And even abroad by far not everywere... Ask for instance Belfrager.

On a more serious note:
You probably know about her approval rates at home.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #969 – 2016-04-23, 12:20:15

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 10:59:27

Your guesswork and my personal circle of friends are both totally irrelevant.
Besides, "a better president" to whom? After all we are talking about the US President and not (yet) a President of the world.

If I said I suspect Germans think Rutte is a better prime minister than Balkenende, would you also have such strange objections?

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-23, 10:59:27

Fact is, the USA had more credit among Germans during the Bush era than it has now.
I'll give you just a link to a FAZ article.

So? That's the answer to a different question.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #970 – 2016-04-23, 15:08:18

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-23, 09:33:05

Apparently, Crack Cocaine has made a major landfall in Germany... There's no other explanation I can think of for this statement.

The explanation is similar to thinking she's a socialist.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #971 – 2016-04-23, 15:33:19

Delegates face death threats from Trump supporters
At the Republican National Committee’s spring meeting, delegates describe vicious missives demanding they support the GOP front-runner.

...

Quote

“The Trump campaign needs to publicly reject bullying and threats of violence. They haven't, yet. It's not OK to give supporters threatening violence a wink and a nod.”

....

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #972 – 2016-04-24, 19:15:50

The basic and rather sad if not shocking aspect of the election is the width of support Donald Trump is getting.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #973 – 2016-04-24, 19:55:06

What? You, the fan of "wide" democracy dislikes the populist?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #974 – 2016-04-26, 03:55:42

Of course I believe in democracy and you really have a nerve as your place is hardly widely democratic is it? Politically it is a jome but for large numbers of Americans it is even worse.