The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 362625 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #925 – 2016-04-16, 01:07:59

Howie, you choose to ignore even the vast differences between three remaining Republican candidates and between Hillary and Bernie. In fact, Sanders is not really a Democrat. He's a democratic socialist. There are also arguments Trump isn't really a Republican (without going so far as to explore the possibility that he's a fascist.) Those two have simply latched themselves on to the Republican and Democratic political machinery even as the party leaders impotently protested.

What difference does it make if we have 246 Republicans in the House of Representatives, but 50 of them quarrel with the rest on occasion while agreeing with them most of the time instead of calling themselves by a different party brand? Likewise for the Democrats, with different numbers of course. A "Dixiecratic" Republican from the Bible belt is often a very different animal from an individualistic business minded one from Nevada. Our Senators and Representatives represent their districts' values and concerns , so there's no reason for a Nevada Party, California Party, etc.

But I doubt any of this will sink in, since your favorite hobby is bashing America. Oh and why did 45 percent of Scots voted to leave the UK even though London didn't pass any unfair laws against Scotland? All is not well when almost half the people vote like that without a precipitating event. Are you able to answer or not. I suspect not.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #926 – 2016-04-16, 07:56:19

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-16, 01:07:59

... Hillary and Bernie. In fact, Sanders is not really a Democrat. He's a democratic socialist.

So while Hillary represents the 'genuine' democrat, Sanders is kind of a variation.
Be aware that I'm not arguing here. I'm just curious how Americans perceive different political nuances.

Hence my questions:
- Has the term "socialist" a negative connotation for most Americans? In case it has, what are the negative associations?
- What makes a real Democrat compared to a subvariety like Sanders?

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-16, 01:07:59

Oh and why did 45 percent of Scots voted to leave the UK even though London didn't pass any unfair laws against Scotland? All is not well when almost half the people vote like that without a precipitating event. Are you able to answer or not.

Let me give a try even so I'm not RJ, neither would RJ agree with my point...
Would Americans prefer to live under Canadian, Australian or British law? All three mentioned countries are considered democracies.
So what could go wrong?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #927 – 2016-04-16, 15:31:03

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-16, 07:56:19

Be aware that I'm not arguing here. I'm just curious how Americans perceive different political nuances.

She's a highly connected, establishment Democrat. Bernie is a self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist running on the Democratic ticket and is in the Senate as an independent. So he's not really a Democrat by his own description. Anyone can run for office as Democrat or Republican, regardless of how much or little they agree with DNC or RNC (Democratic/Republican National Committees), as long as they meet the requirements outlined in the Constitution and of course, it's up to the voters to accept or reject them. This one of the many things Howie fails to understand.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #928 – 2016-04-16, 15:48:02

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-16, 07:56:19

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-16, 01:07:59
... Hillary and Bernie. In fact, Sanders is not really a Democrat. He's a democratic socialist.
So while Hillary represents the 'genuine' democrat, Sanders is kind of a variation.
Be aware that I'm not arguing here. I'm just curious how Americans perceive different political nuances.
Hence my questions:
- Has the term "socialist" a negative connotation for most Americans? In case it has, what are the negative associations?
- What makes a real Democrat compared to a subvariety like Sanders?

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-16, 01:07:59
Oh and why did 45 percent of Scots voted to leave the UK even though London didn't pass any unfair laws against Scotland? All is not well when almost half the people vote like that without a precipitating event. Are you able to answer or not.
Let me give a try even so I'm not RJ, neither would RJ agree with my point...
Would Americans prefer to live under Canadian, Australian or British law? All three mentioned countries are considered democracies.
So what could go wrong?

1. "Socialist" has been a smear term in the US since the McCarthy ere of the 50's. When Republicans fall into a tight spot, the go-to political move is to assert (insert politician here) is a gotdamned Socialist!" The grand irony of this, is that the same Repubs will assert in the same breath that the US is a Christian country, but vehemently deny that Jesus was a socialist. If things weren't affected so much by such jackassery, it might be somewhat humorous.

2. Hillary is representative of the post-Reagan Democrats. In other words, she and her husband, as well as Obama, all whore themselves out to big businesses and swear to serve their interests (Obama will be a God in Big Pharmacy, forever more), but in public and speeches, deny such. Have a look at the debates so far. Bernie will assert such, but in much nicer language, and Hillary will deny it. She'll say, "I'm going to rein in the big banks!", all the while receiving huge donations to her PACs and Super PACs.

Bernie is more representative of the old-school, Franklin D. Roosevelt school of Democrats.

3. I would prefer to import the law allowing the open carrying of beer in the streets, nationally. New Orleans and Vegas are the only places I know of in that allow this. Also, I would greatly prefer a NHS-style system regarding healthcare, rather than the current abortion we currently have.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #929 – 2016-04-16, 17:44:10

While American English is a more proper form of English in the sense that it has diverged less from earlier English, the political vocabulary is an exception. Left/right of centre might vary as different countries have different political midpoints (and individuals opinions), but there would be little confusion on the terms if a Norwegian, Portuguese and Australian were to discuss politics. Not so an American and virtually anyone else. Liberal, conservative, socialist, republican, red, blue, communist, progressive, and the rest of those labels in particular.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #930 – 2016-04-17, 00:09:50

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-17, 00:48:02

.......the open carrying of beer in the streets, nationally. New Orleans and Vegas are the only places I know of in that allow this........

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_open_container_laws#Places_where_legal

Open container restrictions are not always rigorously enforced, and open containers may in fact be legally permitted in nominally private events which are open to the public. This is especially true in downtown districts and during holidays and sporting events; see tailgate party.
Places where legal

There are a few public places in the United States where open containers are always permitted in the street:

The city of Butte, Montana, prohibits open containers only between 2am and 8am. Drinking openly in the street is allowed throughout the city (and elsewhere in Montana where no local laws exist) during the other 18 hours of the day.[3] A recent attempt to pass a comprehensive open container prohibition in Butte met with widespread opposition and was dropped.[4] However, Montana state law does prohibit open containers in vehicles on a highway.[5]
In the Power & Light District of Kansas City, Missouri, a special Missouri state law[6] preempts Kansas City's ordinary local law against open containers[7] and allows the possession and consumption of alcoholic beverages on the street in open plastic containers.[8] Although Missouri has no statewide open container law, the Power & Light District remains the only part of Kansas City where open containers are allowed actually on the street, and throughout the rest of Kansas City, open containers remain expressly prohibited.
In unincorporated Clark County, Nevada (including the Las Vegas Strip) the laws allow the possession and consumption on the street of alcoholic beverages except within parking lots or, if the alcohol was purchased in a closed container, on the premises of or within 1000 feet of the store from which it was purchased.[9] It is also illegal to possess a glass or aluminum beverage container on specially designated streets during special events, such as the Strip on New Year's Eve.[10]
The entertainment district along Beale Street in Downtown Memphis, Tennessee, is specially exempt from both Tennessee's statewide open container ban and Memphis's local open container ban, thereby permitting the open consumption of alcoholic beverages on the street.
The city of New Orleans, Louisiana allows the possession and consumption on the street of any alcoholic beverage in an open plastic container (not in glass bottles or containers). Throughout the rest of Louisiana, however, open containers are still prohibited, despite the fact that drive-thru frozen daiquiri stands are legal.[11]
In the Savannah Historic District of Downtown Savannah, Georgia, city law allows possession and consumption on the street of one alcoholic beverage in an open plastic container of not more than 16 ounces.[12] Because Georgia has no state public open container law, the city law governs. Throughout the rest of Savannah, however, open containers remain prohibited.
The town of Fredericksburg, Texas allows open containers of beer or wine (no liquor) in its Main street shopping district.
The city of Hood River, Oregon, has no open container ordinance.[13] Oregon statewide open container laws only pertain to vehicles.[14]
The city of Erie, Pennsylvania has no open container law; consumption of alcoholic beverages is not generally prohibited in public spaces.[15]
The village of East Aurora, New York has no open container law; consumption of alcoholic beverages is not generally prohibited in public spaces.

Something everyone needs to know!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #931 – 2016-04-17, 01:02:10

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-16, 15:48:02

1. "Socialist" has been a smear term in the US since the McCarthy ere of the 50's. When Republicans fall into a tight spot, the go-to political move is to assert (insert politician here) is a gotdamned Socialist!"

Correct, but if somebody describe himself as such is it still a smear to call him that?

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2016-04-17, 00:09:50

In unincorporated Clark County, Nevada (including the Las Vegas Strip) the laws allow the possession and consumption on the street of alcoholic beverages except within parking lots or, if the alcohol was purchased in a closed container, on the premises of or within 1000 feet of the store from which it was purchased.

Or on Fremont street, which is in downtown Las Vegas proper the cops usually won't bother you unless you're acting like a jackass. I'm not sure what the exact law is there, but unless you're being an idiot, you should be fine.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #932 – 2016-04-17, 10:29:09

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-17, 01:02:10

Correct, but if somebody describe himself as such is it still a smear to call him that?

Yes. Someone reappropriating a smear doesn't stop if from being a smear in the context in which it is a smear in the first place.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #933 – 2016-04-17, 16:23:25

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2016-04-17, 00:09:50

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-17, 00:48:02
.......the open carrying of beer in the streets, nationally. New Orleans and Vegas are the only places I know of in that allow this........

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_open_container_laws#Places_where_legal

Open container restrictions are not always rigorously enforced, and open containers may in fact be legally permitted in nominally private events which are open to the public. This is especially true in downtown districts and during holidays and sporting events; see tailgate party.
Places where legal

There are a few public places in the United States where open containers are always permitted in the street:

The city of Butte, Montana, prohibits open containers only between 2am and 8am. Drinking openly in the street is allowed throughout the city (and elsewhere in Montana where no local laws exist) during the other 18 hours of the day.[3] A recent attempt to pass a comprehensive open container prohibition in Butte met with widespread opposition and was dropped.[4] However, Montana state law does prohibit open containers in vehicles on a highway.[5]
In the Power & Light District of Kansas City, Missouri, a special Missouri state law[6] preempts Kansas City's ordinary local law against open containers[7] and allows the possession and consumption of alcoholic beverages on the street in open plastic containers.[8] Although Missouri has no statewide open container law, the Power & Light District remains the only part of Kansas City where open containers are allowed actually on the street, and throughout the rest of Kansas City, open containers remain expressly prohibited.
In unincorporated Clark County, Nevada (including the Las Vegas Strip) the laws allow the possession and consumption on the street of alcoholic beverages except within parking lots or, if the alcohol was purchased in a closed container, on the premises of or within 1000 feet of the store from which it was purchased.[9] It is also illegal to possess a glass or aluminum beverage container on specially designated streets during special events, such as the Strip on New Year's Eve.[10]
The entertainment district along Beale Street in Downtown Memphis, Tennessee, is specially exempt from both Tennessee's statewide open container ban and Memphis's local open container ban, thereby permitting the open consumption of alcoholic beverages on the street.
The city of New Orleans, Louisiana allows the possession and consumption on the street of any alcoholic beverage in an open plastic container (not in glass bottles or containers). Throughout the rest of Louisiana, however, open containers are still prohibited, despite the fact that drive-thru frozen daiquiri stands are legal.[11]
In the Savannah Historic District of Downtown Savannah, Georgia, city law allows possession and consumption on the street of one alcoholic beverage in an open plastic container of not more than 16 ounces.[12] Because Georgia has no state public open container law, the city law governs. Throughout the rest of Savannah, however, open containers remain prohibited.
The town of Fredericksburg, Texas allows open containers of beer or wine (no liquor) in its Main street shopping district.
The city of Hood River, Oregon, has no open container ordinance.[13] Oregon statewide open container laws only pertain to vehicles.[14]
The city of Erie, Pennsylvania has no open container law; consumption of alcoholic beverages is not generally prohibited in public spaces.[15]
The village of East Aurora, New York has no open container law; consumption of alcoholic beverages is not generally prohibited in public spaces.

Something everyone needs to know!

Very informative. Thanks for that!

I'd have never guess that Butte, Montana, or Savannah, Georgia, would have had those laws on the book, Savannah especially.

I try to stay away from Beale St in Memphis though, as I do actually value my life.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #934 – 2016-04-17, 19:30:09

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-16, 15:48:02

2. Hillary is representative of the post-Reagan Democrats. In other words, she and her husband, as well as Obama, all whore themselves out to big businesses and swear to serve their interests... Have a look at the debates so far.

I see. It confirms at large my own sentence about the Clintons and Obama. I find it ludicrous when Obama is labeled by some as a communist. A communist whoring himself to big business.

BTW,

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #935 – 2016-04-17, 23:58:41

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-17, 19:30:09

I find it ludicrous when Obama is labeled by some as a communist.

Now some are silly enough to try to label Hillary as one

I know there are issues with Hillary, but being a communist is not among them. Maybe even she had a little of that ideology in college, she certainly doesn't have it now.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #936 – 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

As someone from the other side of the pond, I would enjoy poking fun at all of that, but I have to admit that we have our share of political combat consisting almost entirely of using labels. So no high minded scoffing there, Maybe somewhere policies are actually discussed rather than caricatures.

My theory, therefore, is that Trump is actually a communist because he wants to build a wall round Mexico.

There seems to be some meat in the matter of open beer bottles though. It a matter of national policy? Is Hilary espousing a policy of making it illegal not to leave toilet seats down?

What are the real issues that matter.

So far I think my dime (wouldn't bet more than that) would be on Hillary.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #937 – 2016-04-18, 22:29:04

Quote from: string on 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

As someone from the other side of the pond, I would enjoy poking fun at all of that, but I have to admit that we have our share of political combat consisting almost entirely of using labels. So no high minded scoffing there, Maybe somewhere policies are actually discussed rather than caricatures.

My theory, therefore, is that Trump is actually a communist because he wants to build a wall round Mexico.

There seems to be some meat in the matter of open beer bottles though. It a matter of national policy? Is Hilary espousing a policy of making it illegal not to leave toilet seats down?

What are the real issues that matter.

So far I think my dime (wouldn't bet more than that) would be on Hillary.

Really the beer issue is a state one, but being as how the 10th Amendment is more or less gone at this point, I'd hope, being as how we just about have no other choice, that it would become a national issue.

After all, @string , my state refused to acknowledge that Prohibition had been repealed in 1933 until 1966.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #938 – 2016-04-19, 03:03:26

Quote from: string on 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

So far I think my dime (wouldn't bet more than that) would be on Hillary.

What, in a Hillary versus "the Donald" general election? She'll crush him like a grape. The electoral college spells a defeat for Trump. Donald will get the deeply Republican states, but Hillary will get the Democratic states and the "Purple states." Further, Trump's approval keeps failing."

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #939 – 2016-04-19, 06:39:22

Quote from: string on 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

My theory, therefore, is that Trump is actually a communist because he wants to build a wall round Mexico.

Very interesting theory. Following the logic, the Great Wall of China was build by communists.
Who'd have thought that the Ming Dynasty was communist?

Quote from: string on 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

Is Hilary espousing a policy of making it illegal not to leave toilet seats down?

What are the real issues that matter.

Indeed:
Hillary Clinton’s nightmare neoliberalism and American exceptionalism makes the world a dangerous place

Quote from: string on 2016-04-18, 19:59:42

So far I think my dime (wouldn't bet more than that) would be on Hillary.

So even people from the other side of the pond can have different views on the same subject.

The same thing perceived as a threat by someone can be perceived as an opportunity by someone else.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #940 – 2016-04-19, 10:26:15

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-19, 06:39:22

Very interesting theory. Following the logic, the Great Wall of China was build by communists.
Who'd have thought that the Ming Dynasty was communist?

I don't know about the Ming Dynasty, but a great many Republicans are communists because they are proponents of taking out of a common well (i.e. the environment) without paying for it.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #941 – 2016-04-19, 14:53:07

Trump rules.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-global-warming_us_5601d04fe4b08820d91aa753

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #942 – 2016-04-19, 17:19:05

Quote from: Trump

The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/265895292191248385

This is one of those weird things that make no sense. When you're effectively banning the cheaper, more energy-wasting Chinese products, what you've got is a protectionist measure.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #943 – 2016-04-19, 17:51:14

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-19, 10:26:15

... a great many Republicans are communists because they are proponents of taking out of a common well (i.e. the environment)...

You mean something like fracking? Is it a Republican monopol? I don't think so.
And don't even try to tell me that fracking is of the table. It might be for the next few years but it is still part of the future economic and geostrategic expansion strategy.
I could add the environmental devastations abroad which aren't either a Republican monopol.
Should we conclude therefore that both the Republicans and the Democrats are communists?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #944 – 2016-04-19, 21:02:08

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-19, 12:19:05

This is one of those weird things that make no sense. When you're effectively banning the cheaper, more energy-wasting Chinese products, what you've got is a protectionist measure.

Did you know that Canada plans to build a wall on the US/Canadian border if Trump wins? They're going to make us pay for it.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #945 – 2016-04-20, 09:09:20

Quote from: krake on 2016-04-19, 17:51:14

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-19, 10:26:15
... a great many Republicans are communists because they are proponents of taking out of a common well (i.e. the environment)...
You mean something like fracking? Is it a Republican monopol? I don't think so.

You left out the crucial part of that phrase: without paying for it. I'm not talking about the act of polluting, but about the economic mechanism behind it. In communism, as the name itself says, your resources are in a commons. You can just give and take from the commons as you please. The reason communism fails is that there is too little giving, although it can be sustained by forcing people to give through totalitarianism. The reason capitalism works better is because through the money resources cost, you're disincentivized from taking more than you really need. So far so good. Republicans and I mostly agree up to this point. But then they suddenly insist that resources like mountain tops, the air, and the oceans, should be part of the commons!^[1] Yet recall your history classes. What happened when Lenin took over? What happened when Mao did? Mass food shortages.

That is what will happen under the communist system these Republicans advocate, just on a planet-wide scale. Putting a resource in the commons is the surest way to eventually destroy it, because there is no such thing as market clearing to balance what is taken in and out of the commons.^[2] The reason acid rain is largely a solved problem is because capitalism was introduced through a cap and trade system, while in the 1970s acid rain was plagued by all the issues that come with communism. The Republican rhetoric in defense of the communist commons is one of freedom, and that's true. Capitalism is regulation. Regulation against the freedom of just taking as you please. And that's how the demagogues get the Republican base on board. Introducing capitalism into the communist system of polluting is pro-regulation, and regulation is anti-freedom. Isn't regulation just such an icky word? But purely speaking capitalism is regulation against the freedom of taking as you please, and communism the lack of it.

¹It would have been more accurate had I written that a great many Republicans strongly support various communist policies even though they are not in fact communists.↵

²Of course market clearing is itself a utopian fiction, but the point isn't so much to what extent market clearing is real as that it is consistent with Republican ideology, unlike communism.↵

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #946 – 2016-04-20, 15:16:30

Besides, how many examples from history do we need to show unregulated capitalism is colossal failure in both human terms and economic terms? Economists agree that 2008 was caused over-zealous deregulation of the financial sector, re-legalizing financial instruments that had been illegal for their part in causing the 1929 crash. But the axe swings both ways. Over regulation by equally clueless Democratic officials can disincentize investment and stifle economic growth. The lesson here is to abandon ideologically driven economic policy in favor of policy that can be empirically shown to work. But the Democratic and Republican bases will have none of it.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #947 – 2016-04-20, 22:40:31

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-04-20, 09:09:20

In communism, as the name itself says, your resources are in a commons. You can just give and take from the commons as you please.

Poor Frenzie... The Comunist Party can give and take, not you.
As for the rest, Capitalism is the lack of regulation. Capitalism is just the fancie word used for the Law of the Strongest. Judge Lynch style.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #948 – 2016-04-21, 00:30:51

The Federal Aviation Administration grounded Trump's plane . The plane's operator, which a company controlled by Trump, failed to re-register it back in February despite having been given warnings that the registration was about to expire.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #949 – 2016-04-21, 04:59:08

It's "a fixed system" ya know!