The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 362656 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1025 – 2016-05-13, 01:44:23

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-11, 17:29:15

Well there you are raccoon your fellow Yank, Smiley has encapsulated it well on not caring a damn about real democracy.

Yes, he did. And it's not our fault that ESL classes came too late for you…

The "hype" (as you call it) is the result of ignorance, on your part.

But, if it makes you feel any better, Sean Hannity has caught the "democracy" bug too: He seems to think that the Republican Party is an organ of the state… You know that's not how things work in your country either!
Or am I wrong? Does the government control everything over there?

Well, you're the "expert" on democracy… So, you tell me.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1026 – 2016-05-13, 01:59:48

And yet you can't explain how the UK is any better besides having more political parties, most of which only have token representation in Parliament. Oh that's right, they have token member on committees :p You complain of "millions on food stamps" even as record numbers use foodbanks in your country. "Millions" on foodstamps means nothing in and of itself in country of ~320,000,000 million people. One percent of the population would be over 3,000,000 people. Of course it would be easy enough to google up the real figures, but the point is your posts mean nothing. As such, the don't deserve a more serious answer.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1027 – 2016-05-13, 07:34:05

I'm aghast to find myself agreeing with you, Sang… But you and I have known people at the margins of society: The bureaucratic "hoops" people are made to jump through — or fall through the cracks — are not justifiable!
I don't care (much…) that Scotland is worse off. I do wish it weren't; I don't like people suffering unnecessarily…
But we do have real problems, here. And I'd like to see policies that deal with such.
Of course, we'll likely disagree about which would do so…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1028 – 2016-05-13, 16:25:56

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-13, 07:34:05

I don't care (much...) that Scotland is worse off

What Howie does care about is this delusion that Americans are worse off than Scots both economically and politically. Gloating about America's problems somehow makes him feel better about himself. It's sad. He doesn't care about America's poor. If poverty was his chief concern, what about the poor in Glasgow? Glasgow's child poverty rate is 33 percent and according to the chart, the worst in Scotland Why doesn't he rail against that and "leaders" there who seem unable to reduce that number?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1029 – 2016-05-13, 19:38:15

Glasgow is NOT Scotland and anyway the hype you dish out is that from the usual lefty mindsets here. In those same areas of the city mentioned which I sometimes had to work in pubs and betting shops were never empty. Satellite tv dishes the norm. Majority of children had mobile phones no-one look liked tramps. The Welfare State for allit's high proncipled side has been a bonus for them and they do not really want. Computers and more than one tv is the standard so poverty is NOT the same as in the non-welfars system in the USA. I even ran a youth organisation on one such area for decades and we went across the Irish sea to Northern ireland for years and they were all from such supposed backgrounds yet paid to go.

The guff we get here is typical of the brain propagandad that hass been foiste on Americans. Let me make it clear in simple terms whoch the midnights ofm the world will of course ignore. The President boasts of being the greatest country in the world and envied in it's democracy, rights, freedoms and greatness, blah, blah. Yet at the same tim just look at the actual truth....

. 1. Founded by the money class and ruled it since.
2. Stealing Indian lands, conning them and mistreatment.
3. Lincoln the arch hero was a liar and disgrace and made it clear out of public eye that Negroes would get no real rights at all so mass numbers died in a Civil War for what?.
4. Blacks treated like animals. The greatest country in the world on freedom and rights separated black and white soldiers in WW2 fighting the racist Nazis (!)
5. In the Russian Civil War while it had troops in Russia with GB and Japan to support the Whites against the Reds were in practice going behind Allied backs to deal with business with the damn Reds.
6. At Yalta after WW2 the President going behind Churchill's back to deal with that git, Stalin as the Yanks thought they were supreme.
7. Try and be a third party nationally, State-wise or locally and democracy fails due to the big two corporates.
8. It is reckoned that the numbers of Americans not getting a Presidential vote is in 7-figures.
9. In the bad thirties workers getting beaten up by gangs organised by bosses and getting away with it.
10. Police forces in cities all over acting like armies and getting away with just about anything.
11. Made a damn mess of South Vietnam with 500,000 military there and hopeless.
12. Some 2.3 million in prison.
13 A Military of what is it around a million as you have the right to dictate to the world on your glorious principles?
14. That 1,000,000 a year losing homes.
15. The 40,000,000 poor living on food stamps.
16. More spy agencies than any other country in the world then added yet another under GW Bush (!). Control freaks.

Just a wee selection. Now it would be a passing thing if it wasn't that your leaders boast so much and actually tell the world it is the greatest country in the world with the best rights, democracy and principles. The nationalism outdoes many other places so maybe you lot should shut you global mouths, stop disestablishing the places that will not succumb to your imperialism in modern to
times.

Now you would have an axe to try and grind if tyou were not such a boasting world controlling bunch oif hypocrites and the section of things I have given not only contradicts such but always gets ignored so shows how deep the nationalism work is the the country. Now it does not mean there are not principled people over there but they are by far ignored because the media, economic world, etc is subtly controlled.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1030 – 2016-05-13, 21:38:00

And yet you find us endlessly fascinating!

You're a hoot, Howie.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1031 – 2016-05-14, 16:43:37

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-13, 19:38:15

Now it does not mean there are not principled people over there but they are by far ignored because the media, economic world, etc is subtly controlled.

You mean like the telly and DM control you?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1032 – 2016-05-14, 23:15:27

Everyone please note that the country that boasts so damn much and beats the chest is unable to deal with the truth. Always, always a smart trait away from the deep contradictions of the built-in global boasting!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1033 – 2016-05-15, 03:08:26

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-14, 15:15:27

Everyone please note that the country that boasts so damn much and beats the chest …

You do know that most of this exists only in your imagination?

"Projection" is what the Freudians call it. (I'd bet Scotland has more Freudians per capita than the U.S. … But I'll let you do the search; use your "wide" democracy" if you like!)

BTW: How does a country boast? Oh, yes! I remember: Some ignorant git hears some other ignorant git say something "boastful" and decides that it represents the attitude of the entire nation — because he can't imagine a country where people think for themselves. (He must, this "imaginer," be a Glaswegian…

You know: People that aren't Scotland… Or is that only people who aren't Howies? What are there now? Two left?)

You long ago "jumped the shark," RJ.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1034 – 2016-05-15, 08:43:28

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-15, 03:08:26

BTW: How does a country boast? Oh, yes! I remember: Some ignorant git hears some other ignorant git say something "boastful" and decides that it represents the attitude of the entire nation -- because he can't imagine a country where people think for themselves.

Through a stylistic figure popularly known as totum pro parte. Although I think that claimed belief in American exceptionalism (i.e., America's foreign policy is formed by ideals rather than self-interest like in other countries) is largely rhetorical, such ideas — perhaps originating with John Winthrop and his contemporaries — still find their echoes in anyone from George Washington to Barack Obama. Germans, especially @krake, would say America is simply practicing Realpolitik while deluding itself. In any case, part of this self-delusion can, perhaps somewhat crudely, be called boasting. You and Smiley take part whenever you repeat the silly meme that America is a republic, not a democracy: a statement somehow meant to imply that America is different from other modern democracies, but it's no more than a bait and switch. It doesn't matter what Plato the killjoy had to say about ancient Greek democracy. Think more Kant than Plato — any (proper) modern, liberal democracy is a rechtsstaat, including the United States. Keep in mind that America has a lot to boast about. I only object to some of the 19th-century style grasping at nationalistic straws. But this rhetorical [strategy] against @rjhowie is disappointing.

Edit: added the intended word "strategy" to the last sentence.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1035 – 2016-05-15, 10:27:04

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-05-15, 08:43:28

American exceptionalism (i.e., America's foreign policy is formed by ideals rather than self-interest like in other countries)

First time I hear such interpretation. Exceptionalism it's meant as simple superiority, either trhough American mission or by American nature or by both.
Basically a failed intempt to gain aristocratic status.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1036 – 2016-05-15, 12:52:47

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-15, 10:27:04

Exceptionalism it's meant as simple superiority

I would say that's the wrong, ahistorical interpretation recently charioted by Dick "bomb the shit out of" Cheney.^[1]

¹Wait, that quote's Trump. Might as well be Cheney though.

↵

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1037 – 2016-05-15, 13:25:45

I found this interesting Sanders, Trump, and the War Over American Exceptionalism.

Quote

American exceptionalism has meant different things at different historical periods. But today, it generally denotes Americans’ peculiar faith in God, flag, and free market—a religiosity, a nationalism, and a rejection of socialism and class-consciousness that distinguishes the United States from other advanced democracies.

No matter how and when you look at it, it's always the same thing, an attempt to create "History", to create an Ancestry, an Heritage, a "different and above" others. That such thing can emanate from a society like America, it's unbelievably ridiculous.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1038 – 2016-05-15, 15:04:27

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-15, 13:25:45

Quote
American exceptionalism has meant different things at different historical periods.

Nope.
Only the rhetoric was different at different historical periods.
American exceptionalism always translated as tradition of militarized global hegemony.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1039 – 2016-05-15, 17:40:29

Rj's "Deceleration of Grievances" holds some 'truths' to be self-evident. And I, for one, don't think anyone appreciated that... He fuckin' numbered 'em y'all. [lol.] As we move into this new era of rj posts one can only look to the horizon and wonder, what's next? Supporting links? Quotes? It's no time to get carried away, tho, as spell check and sentence structure are still well beyond that horizon. But seeing primitive bullet points and an overall loose format gives me hope for the future. And I don't mean that he'll spend hours chicken-pecking out mediocre content, like he undoubtedly did there, but that even in these modern times the most stable of rock can be carved to resemble American Presidents...

Or something. (Eh, moot point anyway.)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1040 – 2016-05-15, 19:02:57

My imagination Oakdale??

Now i can understand a mental red neck giving that unbelievable guff but, eh? Not one of those in the shrunk list (!) are made-up and fine that everyone knows even if they don't want to admit it. Indeed it is one thing the odd person being belligerent becaue of the deep inherent nationalism pumped into Americans from a young age. Even the flag is everywhere except the toilet (yet).

The sensible over there can silently admit that there is not much that can be detracted from my list that makes their country look ridiculous when it portrays so-called great principles to the world. The practical history depicts the hypocritical and state of the system and that more and more there are getting frustrated by what they are having to put up with. Leaving aside the overbearing patriotism which is frankly downright groaning nationalism. Although from two much different corners the hard fact that both the eejit Trump and the more practical Sanders are so well supported indicates in their different ways the deep frustration of more and more Americans.

What will they get when Clinton takes the White House> Sod all. All those millions inside the country wil still be in mass numbers and the foreign policy will be leaning towards the neo-con daftness. For all her put on rhetoric Clinton is a corporate woman and that she gets so much support from that corner is not good for America either in foreign policy, imperialism or what is more damn important than trying to rule the world is the suffering of tens of millions of decent Americans at home. They have had their decency, loyalty, etc, string pulled by the Wall Street lot and the global military cost weighing them down is yet another part of the money baron ploy.

Have met many fine Americans over the years and got into good conversations on my two visits years ago and damn well wished they got a better deal but Clinton will be a horrible President and she has to support all the money men who funded her. That does NOT help the routine American one damn bit.
home

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1041 – 2016-05-15, 19:08:58

Quote from: krake on 2016-05-15, 15:04:27

Nope.
Only the rhetoric was different at different historical periods.

You confuse my quotes with my posts.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1042 – 2016-05-16, 16:21:30

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-15, 19:02:57

Not one of those in the shrunk list (!)

And what do you suppose the purpose of that silly thing that slanders a president from a century and half ago? Do you suffer the delusion that it's not just as easy to come up with a list of negatives about the UK or any other country? Oh yes, the stereotypes about Americas. I suppose Scots are a bunch of skinflint, drunken, wife-beating, haggis eating, kilt wearing sheep shaggers, aren't you? Of course I don't really believe that. But you belief the rubbish you say about Americans? If so, what is your defect?

What do you think you have to say for yourself now? Negatives about Trump and Clinton, as if we already didn't know this? If Clinton gets elected, will she really be worse than Tony Blair was? "Millions on foodstamps?" as you explain away 1/3 of Glasgow children live in poverty (yes, official poverty not controversial concept of "relative poverty." ) Of course, you incoherently complain about the number of people on food assistance in the US, while in other posts complain that the welfare state in the US isn't large enough. So I guess you want us to have 60 million on "foodstamps" so you can complain about that while being happy about the American welfare state being expanded? WTF?

I suppose I must not be a "sensible American" in your view. The fact is some of what you say is true. But I see it as the mean-spirit, America bashing way you mean and not as constructive criticism or to start an open minded dialog. That's why some of your America bashing is self contradictory.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1043 – 2016-05-17, 03:36:41

Usual guff from you midnight asd a drift away from the abject national and international hypocrisy. Instead you desperately grab at the rubbish that comes from our version of the leftist propaganda. May I say again as it does not register with you that tghe "poor" here are not in some shocking desert. When one pays tax has been almost doubled since the last Labour and left government was in (2 elections ago now), welfare payments are wide, minimum wage level is up, pensions are up and so on. Basically the lower people have more of their money and also get rent allowances. I also pointed out they don't basically want and have telephones, usually more than one tv, computers and so on. We recently had a tv programme about them and what i found head shaking was one moaner who had an Apple laptop in a "poor" neighbourhood and another an Appe I phone. Some even have second hand cars and so on.

The situation is totally different in your country and there is no Welfare state and the things we have and taken for granted. Secondly you totally also ignore all the national mental flag waving in the USA the boasting and doing so across the world just as your president does right now. The widespread situation of the poor in America is something a lot worse than you using leftists here to draw away from the hard truth. Big money rules over there and if you are down then tough. The last time we had a Labour Party in power they did little for the poorer in society and as I state since then wider payments, tax, pensions, etc all far better. You do what all you ex-colonists do and scratch around for something because you cannot really deal with the hard truth of the national hypocrisy. Poor in the US IS a lot worse than here.. You may possibly be aware of the matter regarding Trump and Clinton but damn well stuck with it due to the 2 corporate parties and no-one else has a damn chance and well you know it.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1044 – 2016-05-17, 05:08:37

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-16, 19:36:41

Usual guff from you midnight asd a drift away from the abject national and international hypocrisy.

…forgot which tread you're in, again, Howie?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1045 – 2016-05-17, 07:44:37

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-17, 05:08:37

...forgot which tread you're in, again, Howie?

It's because the Irn Bru went to his brain. Howie, are you aware that this thread is a actually the 2016 elections. It's not the "Bash America" thread.

Our poor have much the services as yours. In fact, it's long been controversial because it's not uncommon to see people in $100 plus Nike shoes paying for their groceries with an EBT card (replacing the actual stamps in "foodstamps") and purchase pizzas with it at the Seven-11. There are housing subsidies for the poor and private programs such as Habitat for Humanity. I'm not sure where you get your misinformation. There is real poverty and homelessness in America as there in Britain, of which there are many causes that are better discussed in thread on the subject. Again though, the poor are not your concern. Bashing America is.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1046 – 2016-05-18, 03:06:31

The poor are in hard practice worse off in the ex-colonies as we have a Welfare State. And for the information of the know-it-all folk here I have great experience of the "poor." My full time job involved me with them for years and my voluntary youth work in a national voluntary youth organisation in a challenging area gives me credit that the bunk here. Before the Education job I worked in the Social Security Dept so unlike your mindsets I have a great deal of practical experience both job-wise and very long and deep community voluntary work.

The area I knew well in it's hay day had 30,000 people and like other places you never seen anyone looking like a tramp, pubs well used and the betting shop. Homes I visited in my job and my well known youth involvement were all very neat and lacked nothing. Like elsewhere more than one tv, computers and just about every kid had a mobile phones. Nobody starved and many just lived off the State as well as free rents, etc. The guiff you come out with midnight is based in the selective equal guff from the leftist mindset which has been in such a mess they have lost the last 2 general elections by big numbers. In my comment I also said that the rate where you start paying any tax has went up £500 each year and will shortly be double what the last Labour government miserly gave. Pensions rose over £3 a week. Senior Citizens get £200 every Christmas towards winter heating bills as well. Thes folk in "poor areas" don't actually do any protesting because they actually do very well thank you and a lot better than the equivilant across the pond.In one regular house I visited I was stunned to find them throwing out packets after packets of frozen food from a big freezer as they didn't need theml

As for bashing America that is so easy because as a country you are so boastful and as I also pointed out I watched Obama giving an address about how great a country, democracy, ful of rights that everyone was envious of it. Uh?When i detailed the 40 million on food stamps or the vast numbers losing homes and many having to live in cars too this is ignored. If you were not so damn boastful whilst ignoring the hard truth so many decent Americans suffer with because of no National Health or Welfare State you leave yourselves wide open! If you lot didn't do all the yak boasting you could scuff me off the planet but I am too near the damn truth hence the inability to balance the chest beating with the truth. So easy dealing with somewhere so politically immature!

ps Enjoy yh carnival that passes for an election and the result will make no damn difference for those massive numbers of your country folk who are the doldrum.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1047 – 2016-05-18, 08:48:19

Yes, because you have so much experience with our poor. :p Some are really in poverty, others have basically a middle class lifestyle for all their benefits. It probably is true that your welfare is more developed than ours, but you'll note the the Per Capita GDP by purchasing power parity in the US is quite a bit more than that of the UK. So let's your low income person gets the equivalent of USD 10000 in benefits but ours gets 8000. That USD 8000 goes further than your 10000 because of the actual buying power.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1048 – 2016-05-18, 19:06:48

Although I did spend a great deal of time and especially in my voluntary work (hence a chapter in a book, BBCRadio interview, etc) I was also aware that there is a very deep matter of people who see the Welfare State as an alternative not a net due to the asmount of money which IS put into it and that is huge. It was overdue for a government to do something about it and successive ones had simply went along with pushing up payments pushed into work. It is so easy for a particular corner of politicians to wax on about poverty and misuse the word totally. We don't have areas full of slims people pusing trolleys about homeless or folk in rags. There are large numbers of people in the category you go on about who are getting payments they can fully live on and have more than one television, and all the things that people in cumfy situations have.

So it is neat to misuse the word "poor" to try and detract from the situation in your own land where there is no Welfare State national free health and so on. I worked hard in my job areas and even more so n my voluntary capacity where I was much appreciated even stretching to being asked to conduct funerals! At the same time I was consciously aware that there were far too many people who are misusing the Welfare system. They do not starve nor want for any routine things at all but quite content to go along with Labour politicians who keep misusing the words like poverty and so on. That the numbers who were on sickness benefits has fell by mass numbers only emphasises what I say and it was not before time that Housing estates for the less well off including the one I soent so much time in are modern, smart and a lot better than many places over the pond. There are no riots, parades and all that stuff.

So a nice try using the propaganda of the British left but it has been out of power for 2 general elections with the worse results for decades and the reason is not because others want to destroy the "poor." It is because far too much was dished out quite literally with no real checks or balance. In your corner ven getting a job with health benefits is a basic thing but not needed here. We even get people going on holiday trips to Europe who are living off the country so the less well off are I stand by saying are safer here than in the States. Your biggest problem is the well indoctrinated nationalism that has patriotism as the cover and because of the stuff heavily portrayed as the greatest country in the world does make it open to a kick as nothing will happen to reduce the million a year losing homes, the tens of millions of poor on stamps and so on so the election does zilch for them. Twice on tv here we have seen a documentary where a team of doctors and dentists organised a tour of the USA setting up tents etc to offer free health care and they could not cope. I can almost understand using the let politicians here to try and detract from a very deep malaise over there but it is no excuse for the sad hypocrisy that effects far too many in your own land. Oh and I came from a city working class family background and wanted for nothing and we as a family were not gong to drift into what happened with the Welfare State being seen as an alternative to working, etc. Still stand by that being less well off in the States is I am afraid, worse.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1049 – 2016-05-18, 19:39:48

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-18, 12:06:48

here are large numbers of people in the category you go on about who are getting payments they can fully live on and have more than one television, and all the things that people in cumfy situations have

What is your obsession with TV about?