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Topic: What's going on in Catalonia? (Read 4444 times)

What's going on in Catalonia?

Hi,guys
  I would like to ask for your opinions about what's happening in Catalonia.We've seen these last few months a lot of news about such topic and I would like to hear what people from different places and backgrounds have to say about it.

  ??? Do you think this is an european issue or just an internal problem in Spain?  Do you think their elected president should be jailed? Do you think Spain should allow a referendum for independence like in Scotland?  What do you think about peacefull movements like this,do they have any chance to succeed or a violent oposition would give them better options to achieve their goals?  Do you think Spain is a democracy like for example UK,France or Germany?  What do you know about the Spanish fascists?  Do you know what happened to fascists after WW2 in countries like Germany,France,UK or Spain? ???

 In fact,I'm interested in anything related to all the questios mentioned, not only the catalan issue.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #1 –
Actually, I don't know, and I don't give a damn, since it's not my business.

But I've been missing Spanish speakers in these forums.

¡Hola! ¿Qué tal?

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #2 –
Greece, Spain and Portugal were dictatorships in living memory, but I don't really know what that means for them as modern democracies. Admittedly, it was over a decade before my living memory, and at the same time my dad does remember the German and later Canadian soldier(s) they had to house, but it's been twice as long for (West) Germany and Italy.

I do think some of the arguments against Catalonia are somewhat spurious. The Spanish constitution doesn't support it? If we took that to be a valid argument would anywhere have ever become independent? I'm pretty sure the 16th century equivalent of the Spanish constitution didn't support our rebellion either.

Quote from: taxista4plazas on
What do you think about peacefull movements like this,do they have any chance to succeed or a violent oposition would give them better options to achieve their goals?
Hard to say. India and Indonesia gained independence because of pressure from the US, not so much because of the UK and the Netherlands respectively. There doesn't seem to be anything like that coming out of the US or the EU.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #3 –
What a stupid and ignorant answer there from Barulheir. This  site is for expressing opinions and sdiscusing things acros the world so boy try and be adult.

As for the question I did not agree with the province concerned being independent and although i know it has beedn fortunate economically it is threatening itself. When you actually study election stats there is a basic question as to the nationalist corner there having a majority of the citizenry when you get by all the hype. On top of that companies had started to move out the place in addition and would not be a help to the people. The EU is not happy at any idea of a breakaway and no guarantee of membership.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #4 –
I tried to welcome him in a humorous fashion. Didn't mean to sound stupid. I'm sorry.
As for my opinions, I have none, really. Thank you, very much.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
India and Indonesia gained independence because of pressure from the US, not so much because of the UK and the Netherlands respectively. There doesn't seem to be anything like that coming out of the US or the EU.
Estonia was presiding EU at the time. I am very disappointed that Estonia took no initiative to intermediate something, anything.

There was some earlier referendum on Catalonia's independence. It went peacefully, forgettably. This one could have gone so too, but when things get out of hand, EU should show it likes peace and diplomacy. In this case, EU just looked the other way like it so often stupidly does when there is some critical concern about democracy facing it.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #6 –
well,thanks for the wellcome
 I like forums like this because there are people with very different opinions,among many other things.
 I wanted to point about the fact that fascist movements in places like Germany,France,UK,Belgium,Italy...were outlawed after WW2.In Spain we had a very different situation: the fascists who helped Hitler won the war in Spain,and they ruled for more than 40 years,their goal was to bring back the Borbon monarchy and make it look like something "democratic",not related to wars and fascism. They also made all the "changes" to present Spain as a democracy to the world in the 70s,but the same people who were in charge of the dictatorship were later ruling in the new "democracy".
 The ultimate goal was related to economic stability.As a dictatorship Spain could never be a member of the EU and similar institutions,so they made up a so called "transition" to make believe that Spain was now a democracy,but the truth is nobody related to Franco's regime was never jailed for their crimes.They even retained the power and the money earned killing people during 40 years,they created new political parties (Partido Popular,Ciudadanos...) and they're now one of the main sociological and economic powers in Spain.



 So imagine a Germany in the 70s full of swastikas were Hitler died old,in his bed,ruling the country,deciding who will be his successor,while in the TV people doing the nazi salute praised his many crimes.Imagine the children singing nazi hymns in the 21st Century,that's what we see in Spain.
 Imagine a France were the President during 40 years was Marshall Philippe Pétain after winning WW2 for the fascists, where he was honoured until his death in the 70s and his followers are now the main political party in Government.
 Imagine Italy from 1940 to 1980 in a similar situation: Mussolini has been "El Duce" the last four decades,his followers have accumulated power and money for years and now they decide it would be good for their economy to turn the country into a democracy,because that will let them become members of many international institutions and treaties.Of course,none of them will never pay for their crimes,not at all.They will even retain power,money,influence etc... in the new regime.
 I could go on.Many other european coutries did have prominent fascist movements,but all of them were doomed after WW2,or at least none of them were in power th next 40 years after WW2.There are places like Portugal or Greece were there are analogue situations,but they're not the same.And you can see the levl of development of those coutries,it's pretty similar to Spain.Of course we had the eastern block,but that's another topic,I'm talking about fascisms related to nazis,WW2 etc.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #7 –
@taxista4plazas

You can read some opinions regarding Catalonia by going through page number 38 -> 41 starting from here.

As for the EU, it's basically an aggregation of interests - a marriage of convenience so to speak.
The bride gets her nice golden ring at first and in turn she has to play nice and eventually get fu**ed without her consent.
As long as Rajoy plays nice with Brussels (and he actually does) the EU doesn't care if he is a crook and the Spanish judiciary a farce.

"History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes"
Speaking of Spain - the Spanish civil war and the European option for Franco. BTW, not only European but US option as well.

Look up for "Operation Gladio" - a receptacle of right-wing extremists and former SS vigilantes, created by NATO.
These secret armies were used for staged terrorist attacks in Western Europe, which then were attributed to left-radical groups.
Goal of the operation was to bring Europe's population on US course and to demonise any left-wing movement.
Even the German Bundeswehr got infiltrated by Gladio...

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #8 –
Required reading:

Ganser, Daniele. NATO's Secret Armies.
https://libcom.org/files/NATOs_secret_armies.pdf

Also:  Beyond Conspiracy Theory: Patterns of High Crime in American Government (an oversimplification in my book, putting state against democracy, as if democracy weren't a form of state[1]), Terrorism in Western Europe, Fear as a Weapon.

Semi-alternative watching:

Operation Gladio - Full 1992 documentary BBC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGHXjO8wHsA
1 I.e., the or at the very least a state is also the victim. This is no different in principle from any other "inside job."↵

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #9 –
thanks for your feedback, Frenzie & krake

  I've heard about operation Gladio, I saw that BBC documentary years ago.Operation Gladio is mentioned in Spain related to:
 - GRAPO - a weird terrorist group that seemed to act only to discredit de Spanish Comunist Party and other leftist movements during the 70s and early 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_of_October_Anti-Fascist_Resistance_Groups
 - The "Montejurra massacre"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montejurra_massacre

  By the way, I agree with most of what you say about the Spain/Europe relationship.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #10 –
[video]https://youtu.be/XyT70irqh5g[/video]

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #11 –
Hi ersi,thanks for you feedback
 As you can imagine,I'm spanish,but I'm not catalan nor basque.I'm from a part of Spain where people only talk in castilian("standar" spanish).And like many other spaniards I'm not in favour nor against catalonia independence,I'm for democracy,and I think in this case (like in many others) the Spanish government is not acting democratically at all.
 The real problem in Spain is corruption.Corruption and lies:you can find a lot of people in power saying something and doing exactly the opposite thing.I know this is something you're going to find in many other countries,the difference is the percentage of people acting that way.And I can assure you that in Spain that is an endemic issue,and that percentage is higher than in many other countries of our environment.The judiciary system is simply a joke,there are many examples proving this point.There is no freedom of expression (I could have problems just for saying things like "in Spain the judiciary system is a joke" in places like twitter,there are policemen checking stuff like this in social media).In an environment like this one,the Spanish government has left no margin for democracy in Catalonia,it seems that everything goes against a catalan leader,documentaries like this show what kind of regime are we living in.By the way,documentarieslike this(crowfunded by an online newspaper) are really unusual in a country where all relevant media are owned by just a few corporations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5b1W9OPok

 We've lived a similar situation for many years in the Basque Country.In both cases the Government of Madrid has left aside any democratic solution to solve a political problem that has been there since the very beginning of the Spanish history,centuries ago, and the only solution they've offered has been submission to Madrid or jail,torture,exile,death etc...like centuries ago.
 And of course,like we've already seen here before,now they're after catalan dissidents,but who will be next? Leftists? Muslims? Gays? the alt-right? and of course everything is being done in the name of law and democracy

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: taxista4plazas on
Hi ersi,thanks for you feedback
 As you can imagine,I'm spanish,but I'm not catalan nor basque.I'm from a part of Spain where people only talk in castilian("standar" spanish).
For the kind of thread you started, I thought you were a taxi driver in Barcelona :)

Quote from: taxista4plazas on
And like many other spaniards I'm not in favour nor against catalonia independence,I'm for democracy,and I think in this case (like in many others) the Spanish government is not acting democratically at all.
I also often observe whether things are going democratically or not, but I realise that there are times when it's good that things don't go democratically. For example, if the EU were democratic or, worse, populist, people might like it too much and then if the EU happened to dissolve, people might want to re-create it, instead of living happily in newly-found independence.

Like when USSR dissolved - it was painful for those who loved USSR, but easy for those who did not like it. USSR was not democratic, so there was nothing much to like about it, so it dissolved for the most part quickly and painlessly. That's a good thing.

Similarly, if Spanish central government does not behave sensibly, it gradually de-legitimises itself, and separation of e.g. Catalonia becomes all the more real possibility. Of course the best way would be to separate in mutual understanding and remain friends everafter, but rarely in this life we get the best.

Anyway, there are too many factors to independence so it's not easy to determine whether it's a good or a bad thing. Economically I think Catalonia would win with independence and also in terms of ability to maintain their own culture and language in the face of urban globalisation, but when the process is politically rough like the last referendum (no matter who is guilty - the fact that it's politically rough is bad enough), the end result may not be worth it.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #13 –
The passing references to dictatorships made me momentarily smile as Italy was better off ages ago under a one party State!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
I do think some of the arguments against Catalonia are somewhat spurious. The Spanish constitution doesn't support it? If we took that to be a valid argument would anywhere have ever become independent? I'm pretty sure the 16th century equivalent of the Spanish constitution didn't support our rebellion either.

A proper separation needs the democratic agreement of both the separating region and the country they are separating from. Failing that you can try separation by force. That usually ends badly, but many of today's nations have been created that way, with the rebels and terrorists becoming founding fathers (very rarely mothers).

Catalonia is mixed. There used to be a clear majority against separation in Catalonia, but after Rajoy and the Spanish government's actions, the majority seems to have switched towards separation. However Catalonia is lacking political and legal support in the rest of Spain. As long as that is the case Catalonia can't separate unilaterally, and separation by force is not an option within the EU. They could make Catalonia so expensive to govern that the rest of Spain would get rid of it in frustration, the (earlier) Northern Ireland route.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
The passing references to dictatorships made me momentarily smile as Italy was better off ages ago under a one party State!

Eh, no.

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #16 –
You are wrong trying to be knowledgeable and doing a silly dismissing. . Right through his time Benito did make differences in Italy and did get wide support but it was his stupidity attaching to the Germans in WW2 that did him in. You are just sliding into the would-be liberal mind rather than the hard facts of history. Churchill was not a dictator man but he did say that there was a more definitive settling in Italy and many things did progress rather than changing governments every few months.We feel chuffed as a democracy that we have things like work tribunals and what do you know Mussolini introduced them in Italy away back then!

Anyway as for the nonsense going on in that Spanish province it should be noted that the EU has no great support for the would-be independent minds. Neither is there a massive majority wanting independence and the place has already lost aspects of it's previous positive economy situation due to companies, etc moving out.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #18 –
No it is that bunch of local nationalists in the moaning Province. They have had a record of being financially doing well but have lost a chunk of that due to their actions. There is no great massive majority to leave Spain but that fact is ignored. Neither does the EU want them.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Catalonia?

Reply #20 –
Catalonia’s police under pressure after humiliation of Puigdemont escape

Quote from: https://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-spain-police-under-pressure-humiliation-carles-puigdemont-escape-mossos-desquadra/
Puigdemont made it clear that he would return to Barcelona when the regional parliament voted on a new president. He did indeed show up and made a speech surrounded by supporters and the media. As legal charges were still hanging over him because of the referendum, Puigdemont — public enemy number one for Spanish unionists — should have been arrested. Instead he disappeared, fleeing Spain through France and back to his home in Waterloo, just outside Brussels.

Rather than arresting him, members of the Mossos helped him escape.

Eduard Sallent, the force’s chief commissioner, admitted that it was “a very tough day for the Mossos” and said that officers who had helped Puigdemont escape — three were immediately arrested for alleged involvement — “did not deserve to wear our uniform.”