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Topic: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice? (Read 21186 times)

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #25
@sam, well, optimism is needed to power up development. ;-)
Maybe it's not yet the best moment to make switch, we still need to work on some basic features, but we are getting closer.

BTW Is it possible/planned to make an option for automatic hide/show sidebar?

Uhm, automatic? :-)
I'm considering optional active edge (clickable, like in older versions of Opera, maybe also with possibility to open it by moving cursor to the edge) and of course action with customizable keyboard shortcut which could be placed also on any toolbar.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #26
Hi - first of all, I'd like to say how much I love this idea, and that I'd like to get involved when I get a bit more time on my hands. I'm still an Opera 12 user right now, as I've been heavily put off switching to other browsers for a number of reasons.

For me, the perfect browser would have:

* Customisability and most of the useful, innovative features of Opera 12. I'm talking the obvious ones, but also more unusual things like spatial navigation (shift+cursor keys) - invaluable when I'm feeling lazy and I'm sat on my bed using my desktop with a keyboard but no surface on which to use a mouse. Easily customisable keyboard shortcuts, as well as more advanced features that are noticeably missing from Opera (vim mode) would also be brilliant.
* Ability to turn off the more controversial features (BLOODY TAB GROUPS AAAAARGH)
* Be an active project with security updates and website compatibility (this will be the thing that gets me to switch away from Opera 12, I can almost guarantee it)
* The general ethos of assuming the user is not an idiot and allowing them to control their own browser. Almost every aspect of the browser should be customisable through an opera:config style page (or config files for things harder to express in this manner), but this should not be relied on for most even vaguely popular features - these should be usable through the GUI. This is what Firefox is currently lacking - see the deplorable checkboxes that kill idea. You should not have to rely on add-ons to be able to disable images.
* Unlimited extensibility. This can be through extensions, or simply through a good design and a team willing to accept any patches for well thought-out, useful, well-written and non-intrusive features (that can be disabled!). Preferably both. User Javascript is almost a must, though - just being able to do things within the confines of a webpage is pretty great.

For me, it does not need an email (except RSS) or IRC client, or a torrent client, because I have much better solutions for those - but others differ on this, and I respect their opinions. If you think you can make better ones of these than anything else out there, then by all means go ahead - but in my opinion, the main focus should be on the browser, and if these additional clients (IRC, mail, torrent) really get good enough to compete with the current big players they should also be available standalone for those who prefer a different browser. For me, it does not need skins or themes, only decent desktop integration (which it'll undoubtedly have as a Qt project, given I'm a KDE user).


I probably can't give you a list of ALL the Opera features I use, simply because I use a lot of them, every day, without thinking. It's most noticeable when I try to use another browser, but even then it's more of a subconscious feeling of being restricted or limited than a conscious "this, this and this are missing" type thing. Ones that I have found invaluable in the past are the F12 menu (how useful is that?), keyboard shortcut customisability, context menu customisability, Opera buttons, block content, fit to width, Link, address bar searches (I make HEAVY use of these), RSS feeds, "enable plugins only on demand", site preferences (through the F12 menu), good session management (along with being able to reopen closed tabs, as well as the browser, retaining full history), "Reload every", slash to find in page. This is probably a tiny subset of things I use, and I can't tell you which of these I'd be able to survive losing because I simply don't know.



I don't care about it being "Not Firefox" or "Not Chrome" or even "Not IE". The reason I don't use these browsers is because they are inferior for my needs (Firefox has always been too light on features and too reliant on extensions and is currently getting worse, Chrome/Chromium is even worse in this regard with the addition of privacy concerns, and IE doesn't run on my OS so it's completely off my radar at this stage), not because I have anything actively against the browsers themselves. I don't use Opera just to be different, which is the mistake Opera Software ASA seem to have made. They think that by continuing to produce a browser that is different (even if only in name), they'll retain most of their audience. I don't want different. I want a power user-friendly browser that meets as many of my needs as possible. And Opera 12 is still the best for this.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #27
spatial navigation (shift+cursor keys)

WebKit has something basic built-in:
https://github.com/Emdek/otter/issues/119
Although we could try to do it better, using some complex algorithm to override it.
I'm not familiar with vim mode so I cannot it until some example will be given ;-)

Ability to turn off the more controversial features (BLOODY TAB GROUPS AAAAARGH)

Can be added, no problem.
I know how annoying it could be when stacks are created accidentally.

Be an active project with security updates and website compatibility (this will be the thing that gets me to switch away from Opera 12, I can almost guarantee it)

Sure, but please note that our upstream (Qt Project) is also responsible for them, they have to fix QtWebKit issues etc.

The general ethos of assuming the user is not an idiot and allowing them to control their own browser.

Exactly, now everyone copies Chrome, which GUI consists only of some basic tab bar, address field and page... Almost no diversity, like it used to be in the past.
We already have about:config, while main pages of Preferences are inspired mostly by Opera, a bit by Firefox (Privacy tab) plus some custom stuff. Advanced tab is more like that from Opera, but not identical (and far from being complete).

Unlimited extensibility

Yes, we would like to support existing extensions (post 1.0) and support concept of binary modules, that would allow to optionally use stuff like mail client or even replace default modules like transfers manager etc.
Shortcuts (done), macros (done), menus, context menus and tool bars are / will be defined using INI files, with built-in editor (shortcuts and macros), standalone editor (menus and context menus) or be core part of GUI (tool bars).

For me, it does not need an email (except RSS) or IRC client, or a torrent client, because I have much better solutions for those - but others differ on this, and I respect their opinions. If you think you can make better ones of these than anything else out there, then by all means go ahead - but in my opinion, the main focus should be on the browser, and if these additional clients (IRC, mail, torrent) really get good enough to compete with the current big players they should also be available standalone for those who prefer a different browser. For me, it does not need skins or themes, only decent desktop integration (which it'll undoubtedly have as a Qt project, given I'm a KDE user).

Sure, but it could be a good idea to do it the other way around, like for example ask developers of Trojitá if it would be feasible to put "backend" stuff in some kind of pure Qt library, that could be shared. In case of IRC / IM module I would like to use qpurple (libpurple bindings for Qt) etc.

Ones that I have found invaluable in the past are the F12 menu (how useful is that?), keyboard shortcut customisability, context menu customisability, Opera buttons, block content, fit to width, Link, address bar searches (I make HEAVY use of these), RSS feeds, "enable plugins only on demand", site preferences (through the F12 menu), good session management (along with being able to reopen closed tabs, as well as the browser, retaining full history), "Reload every", slash to find in page. This is probably a tiny subset of things I use, and I can't tell you which of these I'd be able to survive losing because I simply don't know.

All of these features are planned, some are already done (at least in basic form), some should be available in next beta. :-)

I want a power user-friendly browser that meets as many of my needs as possible. And Opera 12 is still the best for this.

Exactly.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #28
I am currently using Opera 12.16 in Windows 8.1.

The features I miss in other browsers is with the tabbing. ie clicking on the current tab takes you back to the last used tab. I don't use the keyboard much and prefer to use the mouse to get around.

2. The ability to store the profile elsewhere rather than on the C drive.

3. Bookmarks are important and especially being able to set a Personal Bar above the Tabs. Together with that the ability to import the tabs in their current format.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #29
I installed Linux Mint (Cinnamon), and I finally managed to get Otter installed. It's amazing.
What prevents me of using it as the browser of choice is poor font hinting. The visual experience inside the browser doesn't match what's in the desktop environment.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #30
True. It has something to do with Qt5 and fontconfig. It might work out better with your distro-provided Qt than with a separate QtCreator download though—I'll have to give that a try because Qt 5.2 is now properly available.

Edit: this Qt bug report might be relevant: https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-32254

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #31
The features I miss in other browsers is with the tabbing. ie clicking on the current tab takes you back to the last used tab.

This should be done as part of #77.

The ability to store the profile elsewhere rather than on the C drive.

This is already available, by using this parameter:
Code: [Select]
--profile <path>     Uses <path> as profile directory


Bookmarks are important and especially being able to set a Personal Bar above the Tabs. Together with that the ability to import the tabs in their current format.

Most of the tool bars (status bar being exception) will be freely movable, and tab bar most probably will also end up as tool bar (currently it's dock, similar kind of widget).
Import of existing sessions is also doable.
Edit: this Qt bug report might be relevant: https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-32254

Thanks, upvoted, hopefully they will fix it ASAP.
Such issues come from little adoption of Qt5, which will change as soon as KDE5 ill be finally released.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.



Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #34

The features I miss in other browsers is with the tabbing. ie clicking on the current tab takes you back to the last used tab.

This should be done as part of #77.

The ability to store the profile elsewhere rather than on the C drive.

This is already available, by using this parameter:
Code: [Select]
--profile <path>     Uses <path> as profile directory




Thanks for the reply.

Not sure what you mean by the profile path. Do you mean this has to be added to the desktop shortcut?


Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #35
Not sure what you mean by the profile path. Do you mean this has to be added to the desktop shortcut?

If you want to have shortcuts to different profiles, yes.

Right click for properties. The "target" should look something like:
Code: [Select]

"c:\path\to\otter\otter.exe" --profile "c:\path\to\desired\otter\profile"


NB I don't have Windows at hand right now, so I didn't test the specifics.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #36
I'd like to be able to render web pages through a user-specified CSS stylesheet. I already do this on Opera 12; it allows me to dictate all the fonts used by a web page and even block a few ads. Otherwise I find Otter to be awfully fast when compared to Presto. Darned good work so far!

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #37
@tech10171968, so far main blocker for that was fast URL matching, but bajasoft already has working code for that (done for upcoming content blocking), the last part is to decide how we should store these rules (all options that override defaults for specific URL).
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #38
Linux - Keep it Open. Keep it Free

The number one feature of Opera for Linux in my opinion was OPERA UNITE .... (Period!). With File Sharing, online storage, cloud computing developing a simple cross-platform means-method of file sharing like former Opera Browser had with UNITE.
Bring back Opera Unite function in Otter Browser please!

Sent from my Opera Browser

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #39

Not sure what you mean by the profile path. Do you mean this has to be added to the desktop shortcut?

If you want to have shortcuts to different profiles, yes.

Right click for properties. The "target" should look something like:
Code: [Select]

"c:\path\to\otter\otter.exe" --profile "c:\path\to\desired\otter\profile"


NB I don't have Windows at hand right now, so I didn't test the specifics.


Thanks for that - I think I have got it working. It seems that Windows still sets a profile under users, but if I delete that in users, Otter remembers what I last did. I suppose that is just the way Windows works.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #40
Bring back Opera Unite function in Otter Browser please!

Uhm, maybe as addon in future, personally I think that this feature should be available as separate product, not built-in in Opera.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #41
I asked my friend who also uses Opera what his most important features are.

1) The ability to have links in the sidebar that open as webpages within the panel (drag a link to the sidebar to see what I mean)
2) The ability to have the "new tab" screen just be a full-screen image (he currently does this by customising speed dial to remove all the foreground elements using opera:config, and having just speed dial's background wallpaper, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing it a saner way)
3) Right click + scroll wheel to cycle tabs
4) The ability for the browser to handle the insane number of tabs he usually has open (I've seen him with 200 previously... I don't quite know how he manages, but Opera certainly manages fine)

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #42
Hi, I'm new here, Opera user since about version 3.6, because of which I have much hope for Otter and really appreciate the work of the programmers!

Must haves for me are a link function, side panels, mouse gestures, and single key shortcuts (I've tried to define them in Otter Beta1, but it didn't work).

A must really not have for me is a behaviour of Opera that drives me mad: Every time I open an empty tab, type an adress and press enter, the tab in the tab bar gets a few pixels wider in order to show the title - but in the meanwhile I want to click the + right to the tabs in order to open another empty tab, and then Bang! I accidently close the loading tab which has just become wider and now has its closing x where half a second ago has been the + for the new tab.
I hope you get what I mean.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #43
1) The ability to have links in the sidebar that open as webpages within the panel (drag a link to the sidebar to see what I mean)

Can do.

2) The ability to have the "new tab" screen just be a full-screen image (he currently does this by customising speed dial to remove all the foreground elements using opera:config, and having just speed

We want to have it fully editable, so it could be replaced by whatever user want to have.

3) Right click + scroll wheel to cycle tabs

Sure.

4) The ability for the browser to handle the insane number of tabs he usually has open (I've seen him with 200 previously...

Delayed loading can help a lot with that.

Must haves for me are a link function, side panels, mouse gestures, and single key shortcuts (I've tried to define them in Otter Beta1, but it didn't work).

There seems to be an issue with recording single key shortcuts, as the themselves work, but there is another issue upstream:
https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-39714

A must really not have for me is a behaviour of Opera that drives me mad: Every time I open an empty tab, type an adress and press enter, the tab in the tab bar gets a few pixels wider in order to show the title - but in the meanwhile I want to click the + right to the tabs in order to open another empty tab, and then Bang! I accidently close the loading tab which has just become wider and now has its closing x where half a second ago has been the + for the new tab.

Yes, I know, we behave more like Firefox does, not resizing tab size while tab bar is under cursor.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #44
Quote
To get started, what about the whole area of customisation, but customisation for everyone, not just "browser nerds"? How about two levels of customisation, including one that can be applied by the average user (like me!) without knowing knowing every little bit of jargon and all the tricks?


Here are my Top 10 feature suggestions:

Level 1 - average user:
1) Vertical Tabs: This has to become the standard view in browsers. When introducing this feature please make it default. Read and heard from many people who miss this Opera 12 feature and don't understand how a horizontal tab bar could become default in every browser. Also, if you ask me, the tabs should preview the site (just like O12 did), thus allowing a quick navigation with the mouse without having to worry about selecting the wrong tab.
2) Sync: ...of pretty much everything, while letting the user select what to sync.
3) Speed Dial: To me, it is important to customize the number of dials. The speed dial should cover the whole page, not just 90% like other browsers (or plugins), allowing quick navigation. Automatic refresh (with custom timers) of the dial images would be nice-to-have, as well as a customizable background image.
4) Automatic browser updates: Nice-to have. At least a notification would be great. (Maybe already implemented, not using Otter Browser long enough)

Level 2 - browser nerds:
1) Gestures: Please just make them customizable (like you did with keyboard shortcuts - loving it!).
2) F12: Site preferences. Especially managing cookies this way, but maybe this is just me. I think the item in the context menu is already there but not enabled right now.
3) Some kind of vertical toolbar (on the opposing site of vertical tabs), preferably the panel as we know it from O12. My ranking regarding the panels: (Mail >) Notes > History > Bookmarks. Mail would be a level 1 feature, I guess.
4-6) Password wand, customizable tab cycle, MIME-Type file association.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #45
1) Vertical Tabs: This has to become the standard view in browsers. When introducing this feature please make it default. Read and heard from many people who miss this Opera 12 feature and don't understand how a horizontal tab bar could become default in every browser. Also, if you ask me, the tabs should preview the site (just like O12 did), thus allowing a quick navigation with the mouse without having to worry about selecting the wrong tab.


Not convinced it should be default. I can see how they would be useful, but I would expect most browser users are just so used to horizontal tabs it's too much of a pain to switch.

I didn't like most of the Opera defaults in later years - every time I reinstalled Opera I would spend a few minutes putting the menu bar back, etc. - you'll just have to live with the fact that there's never a browser that comes with the defaults you love ;)

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #46

Not convinced it should be default. I can see how they would be useful, but I would expect most browser users are just so used to horizontal tabs it's too much of a pain to switch.

I didn't like most of the Opera defaults in later years - every time I reinstalled Opera I would spend a few minutes putting the menu bar back, etc. - you'll just have to live with the fact that there's never a browser that comes with the defaults you love ;)


I agree that every browser requires some customization, that's why I love Opera. And that's why I usually don't care about defaults. But the horizontal tab bar is the one thing for which I will blame Opera forever, maybe even more than the discontinuation of Opera 12. The way I remember it, correct me if I'm wrong, all the other browsers introduced tabbing after it was established for some time in Opera (like many of Operas features). If only Opera had presented vertical tabbing as the default, every browser developer would have probably done it this way and the users would have been used to it all along. I have never heard of a single advantage of horizontal tabs over vertical tabs, not even when using a 4:3 monitor.

Regarding the "used to it" point: I was using horizontal tabs for years in Firefox and later in Opera before finding this setting. I never considered switching back so I'm hopeful that other users might be comfortable switching as well. If they are not, I'm sure that "right-click tab-bar -> context-menu -> horizontal tabs" is very intuitive.

Sorry I this is a bit off-topic, I'm just trying to make a point, why the developers should consider setting vertical tabs as the default, if and when introducing this feature ;) 

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #47
The feature that has kept me most loyal to Opera through the years is HistoryNavigationMode=3. It prevents re-parsing the recently viewed web page on going back to it. Its whole state is cached and it is viewed exactly as it was when I left it. After all, if I want it to be reloaded, I'll do it by myself.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #48
Yes, that's very nice. I suppose Webkit probably doesn't have anything like it.

Re: What would make Otter a Browser of Choice?

Reply #49
Yes, I totally agree about the caching. Also, when restarting the browser after closing it, when you have tabs set to load rather than not load until you visit them, they seem to be cached in some way - I'm not quite sure how, but it makes it a little better.