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Poll

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes.
[ 8 ] (57.1%)
No.
[ 6 ] (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Topic: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time (Read 97764 times)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #75 –
I got to thinking about something Smiley posted earlier. It's the map showing South Carolina in red, Smiley says it's about the same size as Scotland.

Maybe so, maybe no. I do have it on good authority that lots of Scotsmen settled in the Carolinas and Georgia, though. The very best authority. One of my uncles did some research and found that our branch of Clan McMillan settled there, and before my Dad came up here to live and work in the Chicago area he was born and raised in Southern Georgia-- still to this day a heavily Scots area.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #76 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
I got to thinking about something Smiley posted earlier. It's the map showing South Carolina in red, Smiley says it's about the same size as Scotland.

Well…

South Carolina (from United States Summary: 2000, p. 29)
Area: 32,020.20 sq mi (82,932 km^2)

Scotland (from Wikipedia)
Area: 78,387 km^2 (30,414 sq mi)

So yeah, that sounds about right.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #77 –
Independence for Orkney; it's Orkney oil, not Scotland's; the Islanders should not be ruled by Edinburgh.
:knight:

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #79 –
What do they propose to do about Ulster? Ulster is more Scottish than it is English, and assuming they don't want to let the Northern 6 counties join their brothers to the South it seems that Ulster should be Scotland's worry rather than England's if Scotland wins independence.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #81 –
Quote from: Josh on

What!?


It's simplicity itself. The Protestant group in Ulster (Northern Ireland) are predominantly Scotsmen. Orangemen hold parades every now and then, stirring up patriotic feeling amongst the Orange contingent and great unrest amongst the Catholic people in the community. So, if Scotland becomes independent, the question is do they take Ulster with them, or do they try to make Ulster the problem of Ireland and what remains of the UK?
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #82 –
Are those Scottish people dreaming or what?
How can they turn independent if not only in appearance? They are totally English dependent, the moment England wants and they will starve.

To be an independent Nation populations must fight for centuries and centuries and centuries, blood has to be shred, courage and passion must live in our hearts, as my Nation always did and will keep on doing it no matter how dark present moments can be.
History has to be written with blood, sweat and tears. Only that way Independence exists.

No one gets independent because ohh they vote and by magic turns independent.
Petite modernist noveaux riche bourgeois thinking that Independence is the newest soap opera in television. It isn't.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #83 –
Such a pity we don't have e-cash on here, @Frenzie and @Macallan, also, @Luxor and @mjmsprt40.

I'd not mind placing an imaginary e-wager in this thread with @SmileyFaze and @Luxor.   :left: :cheers:

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #84 –
I don't 'bet' on trivial matters I don't have a vested interest in, but the 'blood, sweat, & tears' scenario our Portuguese friend dangles like a carrot interests me. I might consider being coaxed out of retirement for the right 'price'.  God knows I would love a chance to torment the bodies & minds of some deserving English prey, not at the bequest of the lowly Scots, but for my own delectation if it should come to pass.  

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #85 –
                 
RJ  -- Tightwad the Terrible he loves kickin' himself in the nuts with his heels.




Quote from:      HUFFPOuk     http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/20/scottish-independence-yes-no-vote-_n_5181745.html        


The campaign for Scottish independence is gaining ground with five months to go until the referendum, according to new polls.

The gap between the two sides has narrowed, suggesting a two-point swing could be enough to secure a "yes" vote on September 18.

An ICM poll for the Scotland on Sunday newspaper shows support for independence is at 39%, while opposition has fallen four points to 42%.

The vote will take place on September 18

Excluding people who have not yet made up their minds, the results put "yes" on 48% and "no" on 52%.

It is the highest level of support for independence since last August, leading the Yes Scotland campaign group to claim it is "confident" of securing the necessary two-point swing.

Yes Scotland chief executive Blair Jenkins said: "The extreme negativity of the 'no' campaign is proving a major turn-off for voters, and month by month they are paying the price." ........................ continued




Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #86 –
Quote from: string on

Independence for Orkney; it's Orkney oil, not Scotland's; the Islanders should not be ruled by Edinburgh.
:knight:
You know that Orkney and Shetland are pawned, and could be returned to a king of Norway for 2310 kg of silver?

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #87 –
Copying this from elsewhere, but I found this to be a pretty good piece, in favor of continued unity: http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/its-because-i-am-scottish-that-i-want-scotland-to-stay-in-the-uk-says-reid


-By John Reid, the Scottish politician (Labour) who is the former UK Home Secretary, and former Secretary of State for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Defence.

"The coming months will be the most important in the history of our country. They will decide the future not just for today’s generation, but for those who come after us. Separation is not just for Christmas; it is irreversible. The stakes could not be any higher.
I support Scotland's partnership within the UK, not despite being Scottish, but precisely because I am Scottish. I want the best for my country and the welfare of its people. I want us to have control of our own uniquely Scottish affairs, while also having the power to extend our influence, strength and reach through our membership of the larger economic and political unit of the United Kingdom. In short, I want us to have the best of both worlds.

That's what devolution gives us. That's why I fought for it for so long, against some of those who would now rather forget they opposed it for so long - like Alex Salmond. And now the SNP want to gamble with that future - and with people's livelihoods - on a set of false pretences.

Firstly, the pretence that separation from the UK will be all reward and no risk. There are huge risks involved - in terms of our economy, finance, investment, employment, pensions, defence, security and in many other areas. People have a right to argue their case for separatism, but I would respect them more if they did not pretend that there are no risks involved. That is a cruel deceit. If you want divorce then don’t pretend you can keep the benefits of marriage.

The positive case for our partnership of the UK lies partly in its capacity to reduce these risks through a larger, stronger economy, a centuries-old stable structure for investment and a greater capacity to weather the economic storms.

The financial crisis of 2008 is the best example of why pooling and sharing resources across the UK is a strong Scottish case for staying in the UK. When the Royal Bank of Scotland, based in Edinburgh, was on the verge of collapse, its toxic debt was greater than the whole GDP of Scotland. The only thing that saved it, and the jobs of thousands of people in Scotland and throughout Britain, was the strength of the UK economy.

Secondly, I reject the pretence that we have to choose between being Scottish or being British. In fact, people are perfectly capable of being both - and many of us may also feel, for example, a bit Irish, or Polish, Pakistani, Indian or Lithuanian. That is not a matter of shame, it is a matter of pride. None of this undermines our loyalty to, or love of, Scotland. It is an arrogant presumption to insist that it does. Being part of the UK does not diminish our Scottishness. On the contrary, it provides a platform for us to reach out to the wider world in our Scottish expertise, values and reputation.

When Scottish men and women working for Scottish-based British companies succeed, it doesn't just strengthen the British economy, it strengthens our economy here in Scotland. When Scottish scientists, doctors, inventors, engineers, academics and the rest travel the world with British institutions, it doesn't reduce the reputation of Scottish education, it increases it.

When Scottish Olympians from Allan Wells to Liz McColgan to Chris Hoy stand on the winners’ podiumholding Olympic medals as part of team GB, they don't abandon their Scottishness or their country's reputation. Scotland's name is celebrated alongside Britain's.
When Alex Ferguson led an English team to victory in the European Cup, did anyone doubt that he was Scottish, just because he was leading an English team? Scottish leadership was being proclaimed.

We remain as Scottish as we ever were. But as part of the UK we pool and share our resources for the benefit of all. This allows us to tackle injustice and poverty and provide greater opportunities for future generations of Scots.

So many of the institutions incorporating our values of fairness, compassion, openness and dynamism have emerged from that partnership in the UK. The National Health Service, founded by a Welshman. The Welfare State, designed by an Englishman. The BBC, founded by a Scotsman. The Minimum Wage, introduced by a Scottish-born, British Prime Minister.

So we have a strong positive case to make for our partnership in the UK. To question the risks inherent in abandoning those advantages is not negative - it is wise; and essential. They are about fundamental issues. And they are not going to go away, Alex. So try answering them, instead of blustering. For starters:
- What would replace the Pound?
- How would we get back into the European Union and would we lose the UK’s special deals on border controls, the rebate and the Euro?
- What would happen to pensions, which will be more difficult to fund in the years to come as Scotland’s pensioner population rapidly outpaces the number of people in work and paying tax?

These are key issues for Scots with a mortgage, a pension or whose job depends on us being part of the UK currency.
Those campaigning for the break-up of the most successful economic, political and social union the world has ever seen need to be more honest about the risks going it alone would involve. It’s one thing for them to claim that separation is worth those risks, to have the courage of their convictions. But it’s quite another to pretend the risks don’t exist.

Telling us that it will be "alright on the night" won't wash. If we leave the UK there is no going back. Everybody in Scotland has a responsibility to get involved. If this is just a debate between politicians the public will switch off. Don’t wake up the day after the referendum wishing you had done more to keep Scotland in the UK.

I believe we will win this campaign because the arguments of both the head and the heart are overwhelmingly in our favour. We really can have the best of both worlds – a uniquely Scottish identity and place in the world, without losing the back-up that comes from being part of something bigger. We are stronger and better together.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #88 –
Salmondnomics - a view of economics which ignores reality.

Mind you the SNP are not alone, we also have UKIP in the UK who cannot admit to the very severe downside of leaving the EU.

Salmondonomics or Faragenomics - not much difference there - jingoism at the expense of realism.

The naive leading the gullible.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #90 –
Wikipedia has a map of the exclusive economic zones.



Scotland certainly has a nice big stretch of the North Sea, but it's unclear to me how it'd bar access to Norse waters. (Or, for that matter, why they would even consider such a thing in the first place.)

Edit:
Something I didn't know: apparently the whole thing is divided into little blocks of one degree of longitude by one degree of latitude:

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #91 –
From that map, although it does not show yet which area might be part of Scottish jurisdiction, I agree, Salmond's threat is empty. Presumably he said that for home consumption, thinking to give the impression that he has a strong hand to play. I don't believe for one moment that he fools the Scottish electorate. ... A bit insulting of him really.

He has form, threatening to reneg on Scotland's debts if he does not get his own way with the UK. Such outbursts not only antagonise his counterparts in any discussion but also damage Scotland's reputation.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #92 –
Non-broken link

Nice map, though quite literally the North Sea only, the black line being the drainage basin.
Quote from: jax on

No, it wouldn't block Norway from the North Sea, or anyone from anyone else, really. Here is the full picture, with Danish seas highlighted, with the Faroe Islands in the middle. A fairly significant part of the Scottish claim is based on Shetland and Orkneys.


Threatening to kick out the EU if it misbehaves, as I doubt it will, seems quite reasonable.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #93 –
It is good to know that political craziness isn't exclusively an American thing. Looks like there's plenty to go around, so Scotland and the rest of the UK can have generous helpings, with enough left over that nobody needs to feel left out.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #94 –
You can always rely on The Guardian for taking things out of context and publishing them as facts.
Here's what he actually said.
Quote
The Scottish Government recognises that continued membership of the EU will require negotiations on the specific terms. That is only right and proper. But these negotiations will be completed within the 18 month period between a Yes vote in September and achieving independence in March 2016.

You don’t have to depend on the Scottish Government for that opinion. I can cite Professor James Crawford, the UK Government’s own chosen legal expert on such matters. The Professor told the BBC’s Today programme that an 18 month timetable is “realistic” – that was on the same day that his report for the UK Government was published.

Sir David Edward, of course, is the former judge of the European Court of Justice; one of the true architects of the European Union. It is Sir David who has said that during the 18 months between the Scottish Yes vote and independence “there will be an obligation to negotiate a solution that does not lead to the absurd result that is being suggested” of Scotland being required to leave the EU only to immediately re-apply for membership.

And there’s another reason why James Crawford is right in saying that the 18 month timetable is realistic. Scotland will ask for continued membership on the basis of “continuity of effect”, and at no detriment to other members.

So there need be no reopening of the EU budget agreed last year to 2020. Scotland would take responsibility for its share of UK contributions and receipts – which means that we would still be a net contributor to the EU. We would remain within the Common Travel Area of the British Isles, as we are at present. And as a senior UK Government minister acknowledged to the Guardian newspaper last month, “of course” we will continue to share a currency with the rest of the UK.

We propose a practical, common sense approach to membership, which means that there is no detriment – none whatsoever – to any other member of the European Union as a result of Scotland’s continuing membership.

And the alternative – the fishing fleets of 12 countries being denied any access to Scottish waters and as a consequence, their access to Norwegian waters, which is also dependent on Scottish access; 160,000 EU workers and students, and of course voters, in Scotland suddenly uncertain about their status; five and a quarter million people ceasing to be EU citizens against their will – this alternative, as Sir David Edward points out, is clearly absurd.



Full speech for those who have nothing better to do is published here.
The start and end to every story is the same. But what comes in between you have yourself to blame.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #95 –
Right now at least I do have something better to do, Sangria beckons, but I note that Salmond did say those things and yes, it's a threat, veiled or not.

Note that fishing in national waters may well be a matter for that country alone (to a certain extent depending on how far offshore the "claim" extends),  but passage though those waters to access other fishing grounds is most certainly not.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #96 –
More hype on the EU again from the Brigadoon mindset. Quoting some academe when the leadership of the EU has told Salmond the truth is something else! This the same First Minister who stated the SNP had taken legal advice some time ago then we found out he had in fact lied.  He just comes out with something that sounds good or appeals to the emotional Brigadoons who favour smart sayings than having to deal with actual answers. Another typical example of propaganda by Salmond is typical too.

Time after time he has been seen waxing lyrical with that bullying swagger of his on what Scotland has to sufferingly get. Time after time he has sneered that Scotland never gets what it votes for. Now here is an interesting factual truth. Since the end of the 2WW, Scotland has voted Conservative twice and the UK got an Tory government. Some 8 times, Scotland voted Labour and what do you know, we got a Labour government! Salmond is more of a nation follower than a practical person capable of dealing with political wrongs. So when there are political and economic queries he will simply go on about being a nation again like that daft song. Actually we have always been a nation of four together but only emphasises what I say about dealing with actual things and go on waving a flag.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #97 –
Quote from: Colonel Rebel on

Quote from: SmileyFaze on

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on
I still do not think that Scotland will actually vote to leave their current union.


Well, up front I don't have a dog in that hunt.

That said, when I was last in the general vicinity of the British Isles, 2 of the people I spoke to at length -- who do have -- who do have a vested interest in the outcome -- they both independently said it wouldn't even be close. One said it would be 60% for, & the other indicated upwards of 70% for. 

Either way, I think that the Scots will be firmly in the drivers seat in determining their own sovereign future. 

As far as that Texas v White case, as I recall -- & it's way back there -- it was about who owed who some money & not a right to secession thing? No?

It started as a money issue, yes, but the question of secession was also answered.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0

"In a 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that Texas did indeed have the right to bring suit and that individuals such as White had no claim to the bonds in question. The Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." Even during the period of rebellion, however, the Court found that Texas continued to be a state.


Sorry, I missed this post, but where the bloody hell in our Sacred U.S. Constitution does it even remotely stipulate that "....individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union...." ???????

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #98 –
Firstly, Colonel Rebel is correct in that Scotland will remain in Great Britain this September. More chance me kissing the Pope's ruing of the alternative.  I don't mind the dark but avoid jumping in it. Kind of odd for SmileyFaze to comment he has no great interest in this matter as this is what the thread is about. Last week I was able to obtain a sheet of large stickers to well stick on a jacket and it gives a simple Scots answer by just saying "Naw."

As for the sidetracking of the ex-colonies I think that it was rather sad that the 1861 situation did not lead to two Americas. It would have made sense and how ridiculous is it for some country that wants to think it created democracy to avoid a basic political argument? After all, America is more than happy to be supportive of referendums in countries it wants to subjugate or control money-wise but not at home? Hhhm, betrays a lack of confidence.

Being a strong Scottish Unionist and therefore totally against separation from the UK what we have had is a legitimate political system. That such cannot happen over there is sad. Mind you if the State of Texas went independent it would be automatically helped as unlike the other States it has sole control (oddly) for land records not the Federal lot in DC. Indeed it would probably be financially capable!
More generally, I will take the train to Edinburgh for a No Rally in Edinburgh through the city to  speeches in a park. And I can tell all that unlike the nationalist rally last year this second pro-Union one will unlike the Brigadoon shortbread lot have 5-figures on the march. You can bet your bottom pound that Salmond (note string!) and his ever gazing at him female assistant leader will still try to claim something the morning after when they  lose.

Proud to be Scottish.
Proud to be British
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #99 –
The other night here in the land of the heather Salmond the SNP Leader and first Minister visited the large Muslim temple on the south side of the River Clyde and near the city centre. There he was cuddling and arms round various Muslims sooking in obviously for their Referendum votes. Real grovelling stuff and sanctimonious  Makes me wonder why he toadies in with them then I recalled that a year or two ago his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon gets their votes in her constituency and they did a fund-raiser for the SNP. One was even in a kilt and put me right off my Irn Bru He'll grovel to anyone. First it was the Church of rome Cardinal until that red cloak had to resign due to being a shirt lifting oooh-a-la. It all looked so pathetic toadying up to Islam. Wonder when he will get round to the churches - but I won't be holding my breath.
"Quit you like men:be strong"