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Topic: What's going on in Italy? (Read 8609 times)

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #25
Garibaldi. Red Shirts.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #26
What a silliness that is rebel waffler. Semi-detached. How can Scotland be that when it IS fully attached. If independent then it would be detached fully. Hhmm, getting a bitty complicated for you.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #27

What a silliness that is rebel waffler. Semi-detached. How can Scotland be that when it IS fully attached. If independent then it would be detached fully. Hhmm, getting a bitty complicated for you.

Surely I got a laugh out of you, old curmudgeon?   8)

Just thought I'd post that to see how you'd take it, as I always was amused when I was living in the UK when people referred to their homes as either "detachted" or "semi-detached".  :)


Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #29
Yeah I do get a smile Confederate youngster and know well what you are up to. As for those here who are detached jimbro they would do well across the pond but be kind of down the queue in a land of nut jobs.
"Quit you like men:be strong"



Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #32
It is indeed tragic that you've not recruited any of your Italian friends on here, or better yet, a Catholic priest.   :P

Yes, indeed, a tragedy. :)

Except for myself, with this universal all over the world tendency of mine - an heritage from my ancestors - the rest of civilization doesn't seems to care too much about the Northerner forums.
They're wrong and short sighted, one most know the enemy. :)

Regarding the Priests, you can find them right where they should be, inside churches so you can regret, penitence and ask for mercy in order to save your atheist soul for eternity.
When in heavens, you'll have all the time of the world to discuss with them. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #33
Giorgia Meloni May Lead Italy, and Europe Is Worried

Shouldn't the politically correct feminists be happy that Italy is getting a long overdue first female prime minister?

Speaking for Europe, I can say that Europe does not need to worry. The rise of a new wave of extreme/far rightists probably started with the victory of Jörg Haider of Austria in 1999. By a concerted EU diplomatic effort, Haider was blocked from becoming a chancellor of Austria. In hindsight it can be said that the EU diplomatic effort of intimidating Haider out of power and shaming Austrian voters for this particular election result was the wrong take.

What will happen in Sweden with SD in government with M? About the same as happened in Estonia with EKRE in government with K. SD will see that exercising power in a coalition is no fun. Either they'll need to keep addressing completely unnecessary self-caused little scandals or they will be boring like every other party and be forgotten when the government falls.

Meloni will have more power than this, but so did Berlusconi for a very long series of terms and Italy survived. Admittedly, it survived as Italy, not as an honourable Western European country, but it is not too bad to survive as Italy. Maintain the mechanisms of elections and transfer of power in good order and it will be okay. The damage that Berlusconi caused was quite bad; Meloni will be mellow in comparison. Importantly, the most dangerous element - pro-Putinism as in Le Pen (and, again, Berlusconi) - appears not to be there in Meloni. Her other alleged problematic issues are either topics that the EU does not have a consistent policy on, such as immigration (as exemplified by the difference of handling the Syrian refugee crisis versus the Ukrainian refugee crisis), or that have low priority, such as LGBT agenda.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #34
Obviously "politically correct feminists" are not thrilled with Meloni (nor obviously Berlusconi nor Salvini).

SD will not be "in government with" M (the Swedish conservatives), KD (Christian Democrats) and L[iberals], they will be the parliamentary base for that putative government. Which may not sound as such a big deal, but the leader joined when SD was a tiny Nazi parti decades ago, and changed it to a denazified and more electable one, though doubts remains about their honorable intentions. Sweden and Swedes are not really under threat, but the party is big enough to make once orderly Swedish politics a mess. Since they cleverly avoid being in power, they probably can avoid any disastrous blunder and remain big enough to keep Swedish politics messy. (And today the SD-supported three party coalition agreed to agree, so if things go well for Kristersson, he'll be the next PM on Monday.)

https://twitter.com/jaxroam/status/1569192665488449538

Not on an Italian level though, where the politics is messy both in the orderly North ("Germany with good food") and the more idiosyncratic South.

Putin is indeed the biggest question mark. Bit like the "now Nazi are the SD leaders really?", how anti-Putin is Meloni when it comes down to it? The other two definitely aren't.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #35
For the more passionate antifa types, this image signals straightforward "nazi collaboration" and Sweden is (close to) joining the ranks of rogues a la Poland:



Moderaternas ledare Ulf Kristersson blir ny statsminister och Sverige får en ny regering med tre partier till höger. Det är Moderaterna, Kristdemokraterna och Liberalerna. Sverigedemokraterna kommer inte att vara med i regeringen. Men de kommer att samarbeta nära med regeringen.

Until now, the establishment parties did not even talk to SD. Now SD is part of the establishment. That's a shift.

In Italy, the weird and sad thing is that Berlusconi is still active in politics, instead of in jail or at least retired. Before the new government of Italy is in place, Berlusconi is already undermining it.

I really wish Western Europe showed some example to the rest of the world how corruption and treason can be made illegal, but I am of course wishing too much when the absolutely most gleefully shining example of these crimes, namely Schröder, has faced no consequences at all. If Schröder can be legally deemed a perfectly clean boy, so that he is still in the same party with the current Bundeskanzler, then there really is no hope for Europe as long as Germany is the driver and the trend-setter.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #36
Schröder seems to be in company with Tony Blair, with what seems to be the harshest punishment available for politicians: Ostracism. Blair was arguably the most successful British Labour politician since forever, until he joined forces with Bush. He makes plenty on the Circuit, but politically speaking he's dead.

Likewise expect Trump to spend 0 days in prison, and while the accumulated years in prison from the occupation of Congress last year can be measured in lifetimes, expect no politicians and nary a henchman to spend any time among them.

Berlusconi did end up having to do four hours of "work" as community service for a year. Heinz-Christian Strache, on tape actually planning crimes, ended up having to resign, later working as a Putin intermediary. Netanyahu's case is ongoing, but seems headed for a Berlusconi-like community service. Speaking of Israel, ex-president Katsav did end up with five years in prison for rape in the second round, thus avoiding the dreaded community service of the first round. In France Chirac got two years suspended prison, Sarkozy is facing two years suspended, one year not. That case is ongoing. While in Malta Joseph Muscat had to resign. North Macedonia's Nikola Gruevski is convicted to prison, but he has to be extradited from Hungary first. For US Americans, Wikipedia made a list.

Schröder clearly hasn't done anything illegal, that we know of. Beijing a lobbyist isn't illegal. Being paid by Putin (or Kim og Xi or whoever) isn't illegal. Should more be done to uncover illegal activities by politicians and other PEPs, or should we instead restrict which activities can be done legally? Not against either, but I don't think in that case we should repeat the US mistake of criminalising foreign agents of influence, while the domestic ones are scot-free. 

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #37
Schröder clearly hasn't done anything illegal, that we know of.
Schröder is guilty of corruption and treason. Being in the pocket of oligarchs and kleptocrats is corruption, and serving a foreign power undermining your own country is treason. It is quite unfortunate that this is legal in Germany. As long as this is so, there is no credible way to blame Orban either for anything, but it would be better for the common good of the EU to be able to.

I don't think in that case we should repeat the US mistake of criminalising foreign agents of influence, while the domestic ones are scot-free.
Interesting point, but applicable only to countries that routinely engage in meddling with other countries and then hypocritically deny involvement when they mess up and things turn hot - all along thinking that this is a perfectly legitimate behaviour and a good general policy. Not a good way to gain and build trust though. Quite the opposite in fact. Why join (or remain in) a union with countries whose operating principle is to pull the rug from under their allies?

Edit: Meanwhile in Italy, Berlusconi received vodka from Putin for birthday. As Schröder's and Berlusconi's examples show, it is impossible to break the law or EU sanctions, so that's about it.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #38
Nothing Schröder has done (that we know of) in government or after is illegal in any jurisdiction. Sure there has never been a fossil fuel project he didn't approve of or pushed for, but whatever the views we might have on that, shilling for the fossil industry is perfectly legal.

Orban hasn't broken any Hungarian laws either, again that we know of.

We cannot stop lobbying in general, that would mean preventing politicians and decision makers from talking to anyone. We can make it more transparent, registers and the like, and prevent some from lobbying. Bribery is illegal of course, and if Berlusconi was Swedish, those bottles of vodka would become property of the Swedish government.

Blocking based on nationality doesn't work. Clearly Putin has agents of influence in the US, in Europe, in the rest of the world, and they are not Russian. "Influence washing" is easy. You could easily get someone to influence a news medium/social medium and they could do on their own accord and for their own interests. That medium in turn could influence/blackmail the politician. Murdoch is an agent of influence, with massive influence in the English-speaking world. Or for that matter Musk.

Berlusconi is example good enough. Media power led to immense wealth and political power. What's in his interest is not in Italy's interest, but it is what is in his interest that counts when he is in power.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #39
Nothing Schröder has done (that we know of) in government or after is illegal in any jurisdiction. Sure there has never been a fossil fuel project he didn't approve of or pushed for, but whatever the views we might have on that, shilling for the fossil industry is perfectly legal.
It is (often) NOT legal, as a politician, to be a spokesperson for an industry, and after successful peddling to move on to the industry's pay. It is sometimes prosecuted. See the Alstom and Uber affairs that concern many politicians around Europe.

Schröder's shilling was brazen enough so that it was noticed long before he made the move. If the laws are sane, it should be prosecutable enough like some of these cases https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Korruptionsaff%C3%A4ren_um_Politiker_in_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutschland

Schröder is the absolute most egregious example of this, he is working for a foreign power to boot, so it is a very harmful case of legal sloth to fail to prosecute him. It has made the entire EU look bad.

I know that Germany is strong enough to be able to afford foreign agents of the highest sort. However, the EU cannot afford it, because this kind of foreign agents pick the EU apart and make it ineffective, even harmful for some members.  Also, it makes the EU hypocritical when smaller members have to prosecute own politicians for similar corruption and near-treason, like Aivars Lembergs and Ilmars Rimševičs in Latvia or Algirdas Paleckis and Ričardas Malinauskas in Lithuania.

Also a country like Sweden may be able to afford Russian agents to operate, but Baltic countries, where Russia has been constantly whining about fashists and russophobia and conducting diversion operations already before Yeltsin era ended, must take countermeasures, even though German and French politicians ask us to be more tolerant with Russia. Are we supposed to be okay with those German and French politicians conveying Putin's requests - for a good compensation that is legal in their own home country? The latest example was how Lithuania was treated regarding the Kaliningrad transit. This is going to stay on the agenda.

Murdoch is an agent of influence, with massive influence in the English-speaking world. Or for that matter Musk.
These are oligarchs by themselves, not agents in somebody else's pocket.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #40
That does not make them less insidious, or damaging, in this case or in other.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #41
Indeed, conflicts of interest may very well not be legal. Here's an opinion piece about how to change the rules in relation to some semi-recent affairs:



There are countless front pages of newspapers, books and documentaries devoted to the troubled relationship between political and economic power. Diamonds, pesticides, oil, agri-food, automobile, public works, pharma... all of them are entitled to the dilatory strategies of the shadowy influencers.

And in doing so, the trust of citizens in our political system is eroded a little more. Ecolo can thus condemn Maggie de Block as "Minister of Lobbies" rather than Minister of Health.

[…]

To date, there is no direct regulation of the activity of lobbyists in Belgium. Parliamentary commissions and codes of ethics have been put in place, without however recognizing lobbying in the strict sense.

The Belgian Association of Public Relations Consultants (BAPRC) has therefore been given the task of drafting ethical codes for its members. This is a welcome self-regulation, but it does not replace the legitimacy of the law.

The Federal Parliament has therefore decided to move forward on the subject. Overshadowed by other issues such as pension reform or the migration crisis, the work of the "Political Renewal" group and a first bill to create a register of lobbies have begun to recognize the activity.

However, citizens are likely to be disappointed. The proposed register of lobbies contains little information (name, telephone, company number). More surprisingly, the federal executive, the main instigator of the laws, would not be subject to this register and would continue to consult lobbies in the shadows.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #42
These are oligarchs by themselves, not agents in somebody else's pocket.
Someone like Musk does have massive business interests in China. I'd imagine he wouldn't want to rock the boat too much if he can help it.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #43
These are oligarchs by themselves, not agents in somebody else's pocket.
Someone like Musk does have massive business interests in China. I'd imagine he wouldn't want to rock the boat too much if he can help it.
Sure. Being an oligarch does not necessarily mean being completely sovereign, even though some oligarchs imagine themselves to be such. Musk (and more so Murdoch) is a businessman, some moves a are bad for his business so he either does not do those moves or attempts to undo them when he discovers it was a mistake.

Ever since Berlusconi pocketed enough telemedia he thinks he is invulnerable, which is quite justified thinking on his part, because he has really been through everything basically unscathed, retaining all the liberties and access to power, and is now 86 years old, i.e. a life lived merrily and still ongoing.

In contrast, all Russian oligarchs are Putin's vassals who must sacrifice own wealth for him when the time is at hand, which is right now. The most sovereign oligarch is Putin himself. Schröder is a well-paid foreign agent, not some unwitting useful idiot. Schröder's case qualifies for treason 100%.


Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #45
The Italian code seems to indicate fine and/or confiscation. Possibly, eventually.


Quote
Italy
The violation of financial sanctions adopted either by the EU or Italy implies the application of administrative fines and may also imply criminal liability (for individuals only), to the extent that the Public Prosecutor finds that the violation is also of a criminal nature. As to the relevant administrative fines, the following penalties apply:
  • violating the prohibition of using/disposing of frozen assets or of making, directly or indirectly, funds/resources available to designated persons is punishable by a fine of Euro 5,000 up to Euro 500,000; the same fine applies in case of a deliberate participation in activities whose objective is to circumvent, directly or indirectly, an assets freeze;
  • breach by institutions and entities subject to anti-money laundering obligations of their duty to communicate details of the assets freeze measures adopted and of the amount and nature of frozen assets is punishable by a fine of Euro 500 up to Euro 25,000;
  • any other violations of EU Regulations imposing restrictive measures or economic sanctions or the violation of the reporting duty/request of authorizations by member States is punishable by a fine of Euro 5,000 up to Euro 500,000.

The above-listed administrative fines can be increased up to three times for serious, repeated and/or systematic violations. Moreover, as said above, the relevant conduct may be prosecuted as a criminal offence to the extent that it falls within the scope of one of the offenses set out in the Italian Criminal Code. In particular, providing financial resources to persons/entities designated under the sanctions regime targeting terrorism may ultimately lead to a sentence of up to 15 years imprisonment, regardless of whether those resources were used for terroristic acts.

In addition, the Ministry of Economy and Finance can order the seizure of the items used or intended to commit the violation.

Legislative Decree No. 109/2007—in connection with Law No. 689/1981—also provides that in the event that the above mentioned violations are committed by a director/employee of a legal entity, both the individual and the entity are severally liable, even where those who materially committed the violation are not univocally identifiable.

Administrative fines applied according to Legislative Decree No. 109/2007 can be challenged according to Law No. 689/1981.

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #46
The EU may treat those vodka bottles like a harmless joke even though they breach sanctions. In contrast, Putin makes it clear that those vodka bottles are super-important by cutting off gas from Italy.

 

Re: What's going on in Italy?

Reply #47
Perhaps he doesn't like lambrusco.