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Topic: I'm drunk… (Read 6603 times)

I'm drunk…

A few of you have suffered my posts for many years… I don't know how you managed to do that :); but, I suspect, some of you were smart enough not to read them!
For the few who read them and sometimes replied, I apologize — sort-of.
I have opinions; so do you. If we talk…

Nah! That's silly! Nobody believes that people talking to each other gets us closer to — Okay. Now, I'm going to introduce a topic…

Folks: What's the point of talking?

Governments routinely curtail talking — and there's no way to stop them from doing so. Even communities do so…

The U.S. has an unusual law: The First Amendment's guarantee of "free speech:… It's problematical, of course. No other nation has anything like it… Can a civil society survive with such a law?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #2 –
Well it is constructive of you to admit what was obvious dear man. Helps me stick to (diet) Irn Bru as well.  :whistle:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #4 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
The U.S. has an unusual law: The First Amendment's guarantee of "free speech:… It's problematical, of course. No other nation has anything like it… Can a civil society survive with such a law?

"No other nation has anything like it" is of course a lie. Most nations have something like it. No nation has identical legislation as any other, so if it had been phrased "has exactly the same as it" you could get off on a technicality.

The history of freedom of expression is interesting. The question which country has the freer speech generally less so, but can be of vital interest to someone at risk of triggering areas where the speech is curtailed or proscribed.

For the particular case of freedom of press there are organisations that have scored and ranked nations. They put the US well over the middle, but also well below medal position. Freedom House ranks the US at 21st position (with the winners the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden), Reporters without Borders ranks the US at 41st position (with Finland taking the freedom gold medal, the Netherlands 2nd, Norway 3rd, here Sweden falls to 8th position).

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #5 –
Quote from: jax on
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
The U.S. has an unusual law: The First Amendment's guarantee of "free speech:… It's problematical, of course. No other nation has anything like it… Can a civil society survive with such a law?

"No other nation has anything like it" is of course a lie.
Why so mean? Drunken people don't lie. They babble. Sometimes it's cute a little bit.

In whino veritas.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #6 –
Come on, you all are underestimating Oakdale.
The "America is the only place with free speech blá blá blá " is obviously a bait. So I told him to go drink more.

Such bait doesn't get this fish.
A matter of attitude.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #7 –
Quote from: jax on
"No other nation has anything like it" is of course a lie. Most nations have something like it. No nation has identical legislation as any other, so if it had been phrased "has exactly the same as it" you could get off on a technicality.
So, restrictions on speech by government is compatible with "free speech"? :) (You use the word "lie" in this context because you'd stopped thinking…)
Quote from: jax on
The history of freedom of expression is interesting. The question which country has the freer speech generally less so, but can be of vital interest to someone at risk of triggering areas where the speech is curtailed or proscribed.
Ah! Yes, the governments that "curtail or proscribe" speech are really encouraging "free speech"!
In other words, you have "free speech" — except when you don't? (You can talk about algebra but not geometry? Let's not be silly: You can or you can't criticize your government.)
So-called "Hate Speech" laws -I'd include certain European countrys' anti-Holocaust prohibitions- are a prime example. A fellow in Russia was recently convicted of Thought-Crime: Re-posting an article that mentioned the 1939 Russian invasion of Poland… Because, even though everyone knows that happened, Russia desires that no one speaks of it!

While I admit that the U.S. has been "slipping" in terms of its commitment to the 1st Amendment's guarantee of free speech (…but only since 1798!) we've tried mightily to live up to our law. The laws of others are less clear…

BTW: Thanks for the link to another but similar topic, Barulheira… Although I doubt many will follow it.
Then again, the topic doesn't interest many. :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #8 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
Quote from: jax on
"No other nation has anything like it" is of course a lie. Most nations have something like it. No nation has identical legislation as any other, so if it had been phrased "has exactly the same as it" you could get off on a technicality.
So, restrictions on speech by government is compatible with "free speech"? :) (You use the word "lie" in this context because you'd stopped thinking…)
Babbling about free speech strictly in the American sense is irrelevant. Over here it's called, far more reasonably, freedom of expression and freedom of press.

It remains to be seen if you stopped drinking and started thinking. Or at least started paying attention.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #9 –
In many parts of the world —including much of Europe, Russia and much of the continent of Asia; and UK Dominions— "free speech" means "what the government allows you to say…
We have a different conception.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #10 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
In many parts of the world —including much of Europe, Russia and much of the continent of Asia; and UK Dominions— "free speech" means "what the government allows you to say…
No.

When you googlewaffle "free speech" into Russian, you get "свободная речь". Now, trying to translate it back to English, keeping in mind how the entity can be used in Russian (not really usable, tbh), it should be something like "loose speech" or even "disconnected speech" (edit: or, perhaps most charitably, "several people talking at the same time"). That's what it means. Same goes for Estonian, by the way.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
We have a different conception.
Clearly. When transmitted into European context in the raw, yours is coming across like a drunkard's conception.


A little cultural lesson.

There is, however, the concept "свободное слово" ("free word") which comes very close to the US-ian "free speech". Its use is restricted by obvious common sense. It works as follows.

In meetings meant to discuss/decide stuff, there is a specific section when anyone can speak up to express their opinion. The section is signalled by the chairperson, "Now, the word is free."

Why is it a specific section and not the entire meeting? Because it's the kind of situation where people easily get out of hand, start talking and yelling on top of each other (when they are Russian, that is; when they are Estonian, the section is normally one long silence). The meeting has a topic or a purpose and the "free word" section should be relatable to the same purpose in order to be meaningful.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ersi on
When transmitted into European context in the raw, yours is coming across like a drunkard's conception.
Of course, your folk don't drink! But we don't arrest and incarcerate people for speaking when drunk… We don't have the conception of a government censor ingrained in us, like you do. (That includes the UK, which has always had it, too.) You're conception of "free speech" seems to be "say only what the government approves of, or face the government-imposed consequences.
You can live with that; it's your choice. We made a different one, long ago — and we struggle to adhere to it.

As usual, ersi, you fail to understand the topic being discussed… Well, that's because you don't "discuss" — you pontificate; you can't help yourself. That's just what you do! :)

How many "topics" are verboten in your country? In Germany? France? (Saudi Arabia? Italy?)

And, as usual, you missed the nuanced question I posed… It seemed obvious to me, but you are oblivious; that's what you are… :)

BTW: Did the U.S.S.R. invade Poland in 1939? If you'd say yes (…all historical sources -outside of Russia- agree it did), should you not pass GO, not collect $200 and go directly to Jail?!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #12 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
Quote from: ersi on
When transmitted into European context in the raw, yours is coming across like a drunkard's conception.
Of course, your folk don't drink! But we don't arrest and incarcerate people for speaking when drunk…
I'll just ignore the rest of your drunken babble, but this bit is again culturally interesting. Culturally, because your drunken conception that Europeans "incarcerate people for speaking when drunk" must be a cultural prejudice. (Which is a nice way of saying that you lack culture, to be clear.)

Every authority, including Americans, incarcerate people for being overly drunk or dangerously drunk. Not for speaking when drunk, because hardly anyone listens to drunken babble anyway.

In Russia, people drink of course. It's a vodka-drinking culture, somewhat like United States is a whisky-drinking culture. And they are similar in that it's impossible to prevent them from being such liquor-drinking cultures.

When United States tried to change the fact with a constitutional amendment, they had to embarrassingly revert the amendment soon. In Russia, when the Czar tried it, Lenin took power. When Gorbachev tried it, Soviet Union fell apart.

There's something biological about drinking in those nations. Alcohol seems to be native to their veins.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ersi on
In Russia, people drink of course. It's a vodka-drinking culture, somewhat like United States is a whisky-drinking culture. And they are similar in that it's impossible to prevent them from being such liquor-drinking cultures.

There's something biological about drinking in those nations. Alcohol seems to be native to their veins.
Countries With The Highest Alcohol Consumption per Capita

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #14 –
Quote from: ersi on
[…] it's impossible to prevent them from being such liquor-drinking cultures.

When United States tried to change the fact with a constitutional amendment, they had to embarrassingly revert the amendment soon. In Russia, when the Czar tried it, Lenin took power. When Gorbachev tried it, Soviet Union fell apart.
Of course, I'd say the U.S. is a beer-drinking county… :) But I wonder if anyone else agrees with your take on the last Czar, Lenin's and Gorbachev's crack-down on alcohol?
Also, I'd mention that I don't consider the 18th Amendment an embarrassment… It was co-conspired by the 19th! It should have been expected; and its results anticipated.
But I love women! :)

@Krake: I was unaware of those statistics you posted. I hope things get better… But I have no idea how to make them do so. (But I'm drunk, so… :( )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #15 –
Quote from: krake on
Quote from: ersi on
In Russia, people drink of course. It's a vodka-drinking culture, somewhat like United States is a whisky-drinking culture. And they are similar in that it's impossible to prevent them from being such liquor-drinking cultures.

There's something biological about drinking in those nations. Alcohol seems to be native to their veins.
Countries With The Highest Alcohol Consumption per Capita
Yes, Estonia is, frankly, in the middle of alcohol (and drug) catastrophe as we speak. However, Estonians have only a share of it, not the full blame,[1] because, you see, we have a considerable Russian element here. How considerable? Latvia and Estonia have larger percentage of Russians than anywhere else in post-SU countries.
1 The gov't of course can directly be accused for failing to address the problem. Finns are hopeless vodka drinkers too, but their gov't has a grip on it. And as Finland's experience shows, there is no threat of revolution if/when we ban or severely restrict liquors.↵

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ersi on
However, Estonians have only a share of it, not the full blame, because, you see, we have a considerable Russian element here.
You mean the percentage of Russians living in Estonia is higher than the percentage of Russians living in Russia?

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #18 –
Quote from: krake on
Quote from: ersi on
However, Estonians have only a share of it, not the full blame, because, you see, we have a considerable Russian element here.
You mean the percentage of Russians living in Estonia is higher than the percentage of Russians living in Russia?
Before WWII, there were max 5% of Russians in Estonia (this even with Ivangorod and Pechory included). After the collapse of SU, a third of the population (with Ivangorod and Pechory excluded). Make of it what you will.

By the way, alcohol statistics are a bit tricky. We have hordes (and I mean hordes) of Finns carrying van-fuls (and I mean van-fuls) of alcohol to their homes - or renting an apartment in Tallinn where to spend vacations drinking cheaply. It's tricky to exclude this fact from the statistics, but anyway, admittedly, it's still a catastrophe.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #19 –
Quote from: ersi on
Quote from: krake on
Quote from: ersi on
However, Estonians have only a share of it, not the full blame, because, you see, we have a considerable Russian element here.
You mean the percentage of Russians living in Estonia is higher than the percentage of Russians living in Russia?
Before WWII, there were max 5% of Russians in Estonia (this even with Ivangorod and Pechory included). After the collapse of SU, a third of the population (with Ivangorod and Pechory excluded). Make of it what you will.
According to the statistics Russia ranks lower than Estonia. So trying to blame the Russian population living in Estonia for Estonia's high ranking is weird to say the least. ;)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #20 –
Quote from: krake on
According to the statistics Russia ranks lower than Estonia. So trying to blame the Russian population living in Estonia for Estonia's high ranking is weird to say the least. ;)
You have not seen a Russian, a Finn, and an Estonian drink in turns or side by side. And you likely never will. So, you have no point of comparison. So I forgive you.

To be clear, once more, I blamed Russians (and Americans) for having alcohol natively in their national veins, as attested by the historical fact that they cannot ban it safely. And I blamed Finns for inflating Estonian alcohol statistics. But it's still a catastrophe internally too, which is why I also blamed Estonian gov't.

Complicated problem. Half of (men of) my own extended family are drunkards. I myself drink about twice a year, to celebrate new year and midsummer.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
Come on, you all are underestimating Oakdale.
The "America is the only place with free speech blá blá blá " is obviously a bait. So I told him to go drink more.

Such bait doesn't get this fish.

Yes, it was a clear angle. Still, this could have been a more interesting topic than yet another "Glasgow: Pimple or Paradise?", so it was worth a tug. But evidently not more than that.

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #22 –
Okay then. Let me put the topic more plainly:

Can the conception of free speech enshrined in the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution survive 1.) the modern world and 2.) the modern administrative state?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #23 –
Can the Constitution?

(Perhaps more clarity? 1 & 2 are basically the same thing.)

:drunk:

Re: I'm drunk…

Reply #24 –
Quote from: ensbb3 on
1 & 2 are basically the same thing
I truly hope you're wrong about that… The technology we possess can, I think, go either way. And I'm still somewhat hopeful that our politics can reform.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)