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Topic: Old cars… (Read 19485 times)

Re: Old cars…

Reply #75
Even numbers are east - west. Odd are north - south. 65 is over from the coast [I think it's 91 on the east coast n- s] But 65 will take you straight to Chicago.

You can do better than you might think without a map, if you've ever studied one of the US before anyway. They go thru major cities.

Greyhound bus stop
I'm sorry. lol

Re: Old cars…

Reply #76
You can do better than you might think without a map, if you've ever studied one of the US before anyway. They go thru major cities.
Sure, except that I go by foot/rail/bus, not by car. U.S. urban areas are easy to memorise, but I like maps, so I look at them anyway.

Greyhound bus stop
I'm sorry. lol
The scorn that Americans have for public transportation is part of the reason I strictly use public transportation in United States. I have found public transportation perfectly functional in NYC and Miami conurbation. It's worse elsewhere in Florida. Haven't been to other states. I just returned from a trip to Costa Rica via Florida.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #77
Even numbers are east - west. Odd are north - south. 65 is over from the coast [I think it's 91 on the east coast n- s] But 65 will take you straight to Chicago.

Same as the European routes, probably stole that idea from the US. An exception is the E6 North/South route. It is quite literally the backbone of Norway, broken once by fjord/ferry south of Narvik. It marks the transition to road-based transport, and changing to scheme-abiding E47 was not popular.



Roughly speaking they go North/South and West/East. E98 ends in Syria and E127 ends in China.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #78
Even numbers are east - west. Odd are north - south. 65 is over from the coast [I think it's 91 on the east coast n- s] But 65 will take you straight to Chicago.

Same as the European routes, probably stole that idea from the US. An exception is the E6 North/South route.
Another exception would be E4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E4

I don't think they are exceptions though. European road network never was square, so there simply cannot be a square rule.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #79
That's another exception, and for the European system a more important one, as E4 is virtually E55, a grid road (while the parts of E47 that's not E6 is a Danish/German stub). 



The E10, E20, …, E90 roads split Europe North/South, while E5, E15, …, E55, …, E125 split Europe West/East.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #80
Are they? In my experience, there simply are no signs to Madison, Chicago, Detroit, etc. There are only signs pointing at other highway numbers. You have to figure out the cities by buying a map. This is so even very close to cities, such as in St Augustine, FL, where I walked from the Greyhound bus stop to the city. Long walk from formally outside the city limits, no signs on the way, just a sign on the city limits.
My experience driving is rather limited (compared to being driven), but around Madison there are signs pointing to Chicago, the Wisconsin Dells, and Milwaukee for sure, possibly also Minneapolis although I can't recall, and I certainly recall Grand Rapids showing up on the signs at some point although I'm not sure how far in advance. I would imagine Interstate signs are a federal thing, so it shouldn't be any different in Florida?

The scorn that Americans have for public transportation is part of the reason I strictly use public transportation in United States. I have found public transportation perfectly functional in NYC and Miami conurbation. It's worse elsewhere in Florida. Haven't been to other states. I just returned from a trip to Costa Rica via Florida.
It is an odd thing, but then I noticed that at least in the Chicago suburbs the public transit system isn't exactly functional. Buses only go at what one hopes are the right times to get to and from work, and no other time. What is functional is driving to the train station to get downtown (a bit like your typical P+R around these parts), but people seem to prefer to stand in hour-long traffic jams instead. :P Me, if at all possible I'd always take the train to Brussels rather than a car.

I don't think they are exceptions though. European road network never was square, so there simply cannot be a square rule.
I'm sure the American road network has plenty of exceptions, even if they're localized. Just consider how the A7 is primarily north-south in my experience, but overall it's more east-west.



It's part of the E22, which also goes east-west except for local exceptions like in the aforementioned Netherlands and Sweden.


Re: Old cars…

Reply #81
The scorn that Americans have for public transportation is part of the reason
Odd reasoning. But I was going for light hearted joke. I've known many to use Greyhound buses. Some routes are apparently notoriously bad. 
I strictly use public transportation in United States.
[Fighting the urge to apologize again. :)]
It's worse elsewhere in Florida. Haven't been to other states.
The big cities are well enough. Tho, if you find yourself around Nashville I won't hear of you taking the metro buses, sir. I've been told they are adequate but in my experience also a bit disgusting. And besides, I know a couple of good places to grab a bite and a beer (or coffee).

...

The US highways are a little less intuitive. US Hwy 31 would be I-65's counterpart. Around Nashville it splits in two (31W - 31E). A more easterly route and more westerly one. They can merge with other highways and get tangled up a bit. It would be much harder to just set out and intuit the most efficient route. Interstate signage will change giving you a general idea of what follows (blue info signs first then the green signs will change as you achieve a waypoint.) As long as you have the simplest idea of the progression of major cities on route you'll do fine. Knowing how mile markers progress across the state you're passing thru can be helpful too. (An example keeping with I-65 is you'll encounter Exit 1 (a mile marker with an off ramp) in Alabama followed by Exit 1 in Tennessee if going north. Last exit headed north in TN is 117, I believe, then there's Exit 2 in Kentucky. There will be many rest stops along the way with travel info and each State has a respective Welcome Center at the border.)

Re: Old cars…

Reply #82
I'm sure the American road network has plenty of exceptions, even if they're localized.
State and local routes are very loose with it. And the missus argued briefly that I-94 went n/s (and it does from Chicago to Milwaukee) but a look at the greater picture ended that debate.

Hwy 79 is a curiosity in that it leaves Memphis at a 45 degree angle headed northeast to Clarksville. I'd argue it travels more east/west than north/south, even heading due east on the last leg.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #83
each State has a respective Welcome Center at the border.)
Huh, I forgot all about that. Having driven from Illinois to Wisconsin, for instance, I must've passed this sign. I also forgot about it for Indiana and Michigan.

State and local routes are very loose with it. And the missus argued briefly that I-94 went n/s (and it does from Chicago to Milwaukee) but a look at the greater picture ended that debate.
The I-90 also has a big stretch of north/south around where I drove it. Like I said, a bit like the E22. :)

Anyhow, I was only talking about the Interstate system, although at least in Illinois the state roads observe the general directional trend better than the Interstates in my experience.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #84
Bypasses can completely throw you for a loop. Quite literally.  They have three numbers tho (I-240, I-440, I-840) and usually arc around major cities connecting perpendicular Interstates or travel off to another sizable city not on route. I've never noticed the first number being even or odd mattering and some of those can end rather abruptly.

But yeah you're right. Within hundreds of miles even you may get the impression the even or odd thing is off. The lakes seem to really mess with it. Illinois is quite flat comparatively. I-24, I-40 and I-65 meet in Nashville. In order to do that I-24 has to do some rule breaking. But the mountains cause a bit of a disruption anyway.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #85
In regular (non-jargon) Dutch we tend to call those bypasses rings[1] pretty much regardless of how complete they are. You could have a quarter ring. Besides ringway they can also be called roundway. A bypass would basically be only if it's straight.
In America mostly loops?

Re: Old cars…

Reply #86
Mmmeh, I'll agree I'd look at you a bit funny over rings. Loop works... But that's an on-ramp/connecting lane that loops around so you end up going in the opposite or at least significantly different direction.

If I said take the loop to someone they'd be looking for a big circle that takes them to another road. Just not around a city.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #87
In Belgium you might think they are stricter since ring road is an official expressway designation. In practice, perhaps not so much. The three-quarters, soon-ish to be completed by a northern tunnel,[1] petit ring of Antwerp[2] (R1) is surrounded by the somewhat incomplete great ring of Antwerp (R2).

Little ring:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1_ring_road_%28Belgium%29


Big ring:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2_%28Belgi%C3%AB%29


Of course it's easy to see what the great ring of Antwerp would look like if it were actually realized, but yeah… it wasn't and won't be. This isn't the '70s. Anyway, the reason for the great ring being that back in the 1960s they were actually planning to construct a great ring.

Edit: btw, the ring of Rotterdam is called the diamond of Rotterdam and Breda has a horseshoe. So perhaps Dutch people are slightly less weird than you might think and it's more the Belgians. :P
This'll take all of the traffic going from the north to Ghent rather than Brussels away from the eastern and southern part fo the ring, which sounds great in principle. In practice it'll probably just attract more traffic until it's all clogged up again. :P Incidentally, you might be interested in the Ringland initiative, which aims to top off the ring and turn it into green space. I know that at least in principle this could work surprisingly well, since the Middelheim park is partially on top of the A1/E19 to Brussels with just a few ventilation buildings sticking out. There's a slight mysterious rumbling noise from below, but you can actually hear the birds sing and it smells nature-y, not expressway-y.


The technical French term. Of course it's just the small or little ring in Dutch if you wish to be precise.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #88
The most instructive example is the seven rings around Beijing. Below rings 2-6 are shown.



Ring 1 is pretty much virtual these days. Rings 2-4 are ring roads, radial arteries. Rings 5 and 6 are bypasses, beltways. Ring 7 (under construction) is partially a bypass, but for the most part motorways not coming near Beijing. They all have, at the time of construction, indicated the extent of Beijing. 

Ring 2 runs for the most part along the location of the old city walls. In old days historical Beijing was huge, these days not so much. It's definitely possible to cross the ring on foot, not even difficult. 

Ring 3, the outer extent of Beijing until about 1980, is now Beijing at its densest.

Ring 4 was when I arrived kind of the city limit, where people who couldn't afford a more central location lived as well as new housing complexes. To date it is primarily residential, with some offices and box stores/malls.

These three rings are more square than circular, they follow the city grid, and relatively closely spaced. The area enclosed by each successive ring increases significantly though. 


Ring 5 is the first real bypass, and the most perfectly circular. It and Ring 6 are similar in nature to the A10 ring around Berlin, though the A10 is almost as long as Ring 6 (100 km, 200 km and 220 km in diameter).



Beijing could expand uninterrupted for a long time, Ring 6 is the first where terrain and settlements shaped the ring, especially the mountain range in the west and north that separates Beijing from the Gobi desert and Inner Mongolia.

This will more so apply to Ring 7. It will be a bypass in the east and south, and more regular motorway for the rest.



Re: Old cars…

Reply #89
Speaking of Berlin, the inner ring is only a half ring.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_100


According to Wikipedia, it's the same as around Antwerp. A concept from the '50s/'60s, although it's unclear to me how the unique BDR/DDR situation would've affected all this.

Quote
Sie war ursprünglich als Ringautobahn konzipiert, inzwischen ist eine Schließung als Autobahnring jedoch unwahrscheinlich,[1] vermutlich wird nordöstlich der Innenstadt der Ring durch normale innerstädtische Straßen ergänzt bleiben. Dennoch trägt sie neben Stadtautobahn auch den Beinamen Berliner Stadtring.
"Originally conceptualized as a ring expressway, nowadays completion is unlikely. […] Nevertheless, besides city expressway it also has the nickname Berlin city ring."

Re: Old cars…

Reply #90
Nashville is fairly easy to get around because of its loops. They took advantage of the three Interstates meeting to create an inner loop. The I-440 bypass was added to finish enclosing the denser part of the city. And then there's outer rings under development.


The purple line I added is State Route 155 which is the outer most loop of metropolitan Nashville and despite not having the same I-### format it's essentially the same... other than who paid for it. (Legend help: White shields are US hwys, blue shields are interstates and white circles are State routes.)

The first green line represents a proposed connection for 155 (Briley Parkway) but is unlikely because they are now considering extending it on out towards Brentwood if the budget ever allows.

The outer most 'ring' (I-840) covers a lot of God's Country. But they are planing to extend it up to Gallatin (2nd green line) in the next 5 or 6 years. They are currently involved in highway expansion in the area in preparation for it. There's several big bridges that will be needed and the project has been pushed back before, but they still say it's gonna be a thing. However it's not likely it will ever be a proper ring because there's just nothing out to the west between I40 and I24.

I spent a lot of time in Texas traveling. The Fort Worth (Arlington) Dallas Metroplex is a mess unto itself. It's not terribly hard to wrap your mind around on a map, but the intersections and exchanges can be a bit overwhelming at times.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #91
This has the same structure as many other cities, building an subterranean "inner ring" as well as the outer bypass, which may be engulfed by expanding cities.

Prague is one such case, the outer bypass is partially complete, as is the inner circle.



The primary issue is of course the cost of digging tunnels under a living city, with complex geography and often geology and history (that particularly goes for cities like Rome where you can't dig for any length without unearthing some archaeological find). It is slow and expensive, and Big Dig-like overruns are not unheard of.

Prague, like many other cities, have been affected by an 1960's idea: Running a motorway straight through the historical centre of the city. Except that in the case of Prague it happened in the 1970's and 1980's, long after other cities had discovered the errors of their ways. This is a motorway they hope to undo with the inner city ring.

Many other cities are in different stages/plans of undoing urban motorways. Again, the problem is that this can be much more expensive than it was to build them in the first place. 

Re: Old cars…

Reply #92
Prague, like many other cities, have been affected by an 1960's idea: Running a motorway straight through the historical centre of the city. Except that in the case of Prague it happened in the 1970's and 1980's, long after other cities had discovered the errors of their ways. This is a motorway they hope to undo with the inner city ring.
Huh, you'd think everybody learned that after Mussolini messed up Rome…

Re: Old cars…

Reply #93
Huh, you'd think everybody learned that after Mussolini messed up Rome…
Instead of messed up, they probably saw it as awesome. Particularly so in the totalitarian Soviet Union and Warsaw bloc countries, even though similar mindset manifests occasionally everywhere. Consider Stalinist Classicism with its magnificent facades and ensemble planning, oversized avenues that they call "prospects". The main features of such architecture are astonishingly similar to Washington, DC, except more ambitious and with an annoying medieval old town in the way that enforces a radiating grid instead of permitting perfect squares.

City planning mostly sucks. I recognise the value of genplan (masterplan), so that random projects could not ruin future development (or if they do, it can be immediately and indisputably determined that they ruined it), but God forbid if the making of the genplan happens to be entrusted to some soulless technocrat or to some enthusiast with overall destructive potential or to some corrupt sleezebag who only does things insofar as and as long as personally profitable.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #94
Particularly so in the totalitarian Soviet Union and Warsaw bloc countries
Sure, but jax' "1970s and 1980s" applies in that case as well. As an aside, when I was in Prague back in '04 a native told me the TV tower was popularly known as communism's last erection (or something to that effect — might've been cruder along the lines of "stiff dick"), but I can't seem to find any support for that notion online. Was he taking me for a ride?


Re: Old cars…

Reply #95
Or maybe pulling your leg.

Assuming that you were speaking English, he may have played on the English double meaning, which likely does not exist in Czech. Still, there could be a remotely similar joke about it in Czech. I have not spoken to the locals in Prague.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #96
he may have played on the English double meaning
There's no may there in my mind. :)

I have not spoken to the locals in Prague.
Oh, but locals are the best. They gave us directions to some back alley with an unassuming door (I know, I know, this sounds bad) behind which was some kind of almost palatial bowling/pool kind of place where no one spoke anything but Czech. Ok, they may have spoken Russian, but no German or English. With gestures we started a tab with the devil-may-care what's-the-worst-that-could-happen attitude of youth, but actually at the end of the night despite sampling all of the different forms of entertainment and plenty of beer I think it totaled at a measly total of about €30-40. And they probably stiffed us in spite of that, but heck, I figure they deserved it. It was one of the early highlights of '04. :P

That January of '04 was at the tail end of still being able to feel how things used to be, through the eyes of almost vulturous Westerners I suppose, and of course even then there were major differences between the city and the countryside. That's where you could still sense the effects of communism most strongly. Even just driving around all of the 1960s style pollution was a major shock. I returned to Prague in the summer of 2011 (?), a mere half a decade later, and it was almost unrecognizably normalized (i.e., westernized). Not that I would dissuade anyone from visiting Czechia, far from it, but it's the last time I got that Iron Curtain feeling which I probably first got in former east Germany in '94. The remnants in e.g. Budapest in 2010 were firmly stashed away in museums. (Sure, some of that horrific architecture remains, but let's be honest, it's not like our '50s/'60s post-war we-need-to-rebuild stuff is that great either.)

When my father visited Prague in the late 1950s it was a very different affair. Apparently he ended up giving his box of cigars to some old guy there who came rushing in to suck up the last bit of his stump when he was about to leave. Then it was more like the last remnants of what I consider relative normalcy still being stomped out.

Re: Old cars…

Reply #97
I like Maseratis.
A matter of attitude.