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Topic: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem (Read 16133 times)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #50
You mean logogram as opposed to logograph has fallen out of favour? The issue with those words is how to derive the adjective. Logographic sounds better than logogrammic or logogrammatic, hence the noun tends to be logograph. The same tension is with words ideogram and pictogram, with adjectives ideographic and pictographic.
That's what I said. It might mean that logogram has fallen out of favor, or it could just be avoidance tactics.

As to evolution of alphabets from pictographic to logographic and phonographic, yes, that be the Darwinian view, not well supported in reality. Evolution of Egyptian writing, otherwise going through amazing transformation from hieroglyphs to alphabet, seems to be missing the pictographic phase (paintings and writings, even though very often on the same surface, were always separate things down to the remotest history), whereas Chinese has a rather good connection to the pictographic phase, but never evolved into an alphabet.
You can blame the "Darwinian" summary at least partially on me (imo a goal- or ladder-based view of evolution is not the least bit Darwinian), since the book itself immediately continues by saying that e.g. Egyptian hieroglyphics displayed all three "phases" simultaneously. In any case the book is about our alphabet, so it describes the attested evolution of our own alphabet from Phoenician onward, with an eye on connections with e.g. hieroglyphics and the quite clearly at least slightly related Sinai writings.

Overall, script is something for people with way too much time in their hands. Normally people have other concerns.
Hunter-gatherers "worked" for a couple of hours a day at most to provide for their needs. The rest was spare time. They probably didn't spend it writing, but either way we have the exact opposite of too much time on our hands.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #51
Scripts seem to emerge rather abruptly and they seem to often go extinct too without much development. Cave paintings may be interpreted as a sort of script, but looks like when people got out of the caves and into houses, they usually left the script into the caves and never looked back. So either it wasn't script or it wasn't important.
Since you gave no definition of "script" (1) and the Latin guy here is me, not you, script means nothing but writing. Just as in Scriptorium.

Cave paintings didn't finished wen men leaved caves.
Roman houses were fully covered with painted walls representing many different scenes. Medieval and Renaissence houses had the walls painted with frescos.

Even today, most people hangs paintings in their walls.

So it goes for "script"

1 Copyright by Ersi...
A matter of attitude.


Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #53
"One language you don’t receive much input from is Esperanto. So imagine my surprise – and delight – when I discovered trilingual Polish-English-Esperanto information boards ....."
Which immediately took me back to secondary school and my language "studies". I first studied Latin, at which I ingloriously failed. Since successful study of a language was required for graduation, a kindly teacher/counsellor told me that she'd signed me up for a yearlong class of Polish! The rules were simple:
1. Sit in the last row of the classroom.
2. Never open my mouth.
3. Take no tests.
4. Pass the class.

It worked! Thank Buddha for the kindness of some teachers.

PS I studied German at university.


Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #54
1. My teachers thought I was progressive in Primary school.
2. In Secondary school I drew their attention for being different from the routine.
3. Two teachers I met separately in my mid-twenties said they had never forgotten me
4. I did French at Secondary school and practiced it on a school trip to Paris and took an interest in their quizzical reaction.
 ???
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #55
I did French at Secondary school and practiced it on a school trip to Paris
Trés bien, on va parler Français à partir de maintenant. Magistrate. 
:lol:
A matter of attitude.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #56
Bon, mais il faut garder à l'esprit que le français est plus difficile pour moi qu'anglais ou qu'allemand. C'est une langue que je lis, que j'écoute, et même que j'écris, mais parler n'est pas en tous temps une plaisanterie !

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #57
n'est pas en tous temps
? Shouldn't that simply be "parfois"? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #59
? Shouldn't that simply be "parfois"?  :)
Should it? :) Google translates the phrase as follows:
Quote
But speaking is not at all times a joke!
Or as I might put it, speaking isn't always a piece of cake.

In a paraphrase you could turn it around to say that talking is sometimes hard (parler est parfois difficile, or something along those lines), but if what I wrote is unidiomatic it should instead be something like tout le temps, toujours, à chaque instant, etc.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #60
Frenzie, you're well aware of my limitations, when it comes to languages other than English. I don't reject an (unknown to me) idiom that would equate "is not at all times" with "is sometimes" -which is what I think you meant- but I'm unfamiliar with one. (Except in logic…! There, they're synonymous, definitionally.)

BTW: That's what you get for being smart! People tweak your nose… :) Just because they know it'll be fun to hear your reply!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #62
You are, of course, speaking for yourself, Bel! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #63
You are, of course, speaking for yourself, Bel:)
Nope, I was not.
Speaking for myself, you're an ignorant of French, all Latin based languages and logics.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #64
Logic? :) Oh, you mean syllogisms... But you're wrong there too!
It's true, however, that I know little of French -- a language so little-used nowadays that the government has to "police" it... :)

Maybe you could learn Brazilian?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #65
Do you mean this?

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #66
Nope. Belfrager is -like the French about their language- a "purist". Meaning even if most people actually using the language use it one way or more, if they don't use it his way they're wrong…
I'd feel the same way about English, if it were so constipated! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #67
You don't understand the value of language diversity Oakdale. You don't understand that the value of diversity it's made upon the stability of difference. Therefore, you don't mind with your language's destruction and extinction as it's happening with English.

There's no such a thing anymore as English. Today you have Chinese English, Pakistani English, French English, American English, Portuguese English, Russian English and maybe some day even monkey English.
You have everything so you got with nothing, you have English no more.

One thing you're right, if the British don't complain (or maybe some do, I don't know) why should you...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #68
You don't understand the value of language diversity Oakdale.
I'm somewhat familiar with the history of the English language; and I'm personally familiar with many American variants… Languages vary among populations and over time.
Not only can nothing be done about that but nothing should be done. Only silly intellectuals would think otherwise.

Of course, I have my own preferences… :) But as someone a long time ago said, there's no accounting for taste.

An obvious example would be my enjoyment of Bernard Shaw's introductions to his published plays: No matter how much I disagreed with his arguments, no matter how fatuous some of those arguments were, his prose was always forceful and elegant!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #69
Not really Esperanto, but I thought this encyclopedia of writing systems and languages was pretty cool.

http://www.omniglot.com/

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #70
… I'd agree, pretty cool. Such used to be confined to coffee houses and student unions! Now, with the internet, they're much more open to the public at large. One needn't live in a "college town" to be aware of and participate in such discussions.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #71
In this book about "international language", which is importantly a protocol of proceedings of Délégation pour l'Adoption d'une Langue auxiliare internationale, there's some criticism of most other constructed languages. The approach of the Délégation itself was most scientific, as it was composed of the most eminent linguists.

Otto Jespersen's article in the book summarises the linguistic achievements of the Délégation. For example, to compile a recognisable vocabulary, they would calculate the number of speakers of the language(s) where the word/root/affix occurs. Good idea, but my criticism of the whole project, whoever is attempting it as a means of international communication, remains the same - the result will inevitably be Europocentric, i.e. difficult for the rest of the world, while Europeans themselves are educated enough to get by in a few strategic foreign languages so, among all the people in the world, Europeans have the least need for any artificial auxiliary language.

Otto Jespersen has something positive to say about Esperanto, "The knowledge of these imperfections does not prevent me from recognising the meritorious services of Zamenhof, who, at a time when the question of the best construction of an international language was not seriously discussed, succeeded in producing one which was in many respects superior to the attempts of that time, and which has proved in practice a serviceable, though very imperfect, means of international communication." - p. 41

Robert Lorenz says this about Volapük, "The fate of Volapük was sealed when its supporters, in the year 1889, made the experiment of organising a a congress at which Volapük should be spoken. Although a few Volapükists succeeded in speaking the language, it was only too painfully evident that such a goal could not be reached with this system." - pp. 16-17, followed by the remark that Esperanto has proven to be speakable in the conferences of its enthusiasts and such conferences keep it alive.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #72
"Internacional Languages" are a crime against each People self determination, culture and survival.
English has turned much more worst than Esperanto or anything else.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #73
"Internacional Languages" are a crime against each People self determination, culture and survival.
You mean colonial languages like Spanish for South America or Portuguese for Brasil? :D

Re: Awesomesauce Esperanto problem

Reply #74
You mean colonial civilizational languages like Spanish for South America or Portuguese for Brasil?  :D
That's it.
A matter of attitude.