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Topic: What's Going on in China? (Read 89539 times)

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Sparta on

but , Imperialism only Valid if there is KingDom .

in this case , 'Murica isnot even a Kingdom .

then how they did that ?

Rome made its proportionally biggest conquests during the republican era. This is how United States does it too.

Besides, when you compare the constitutions of Rome and United States, then United States is effectively an empire, with a term-limited emperor. Presidential constitution where the head of state and head of government are one and the same person is close enough to kingdom or empire. The republican Rome had two consuls.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #27 –
The U.s is not even Close to an empire .

the Congress can Impeach aka Fired the President .

while in Ancient Kingdom, No one can touch  the King  ::)

if some one want to sit at their chair , they must elliminate  them  . :queen:    :king:  :knight: :ninja:

while in the U.S , everyone can be the King aka President .

if  won the Election

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #28 –
Okay, so let me get this straight:

In 1792, the French colonial empire ceased to be one.
In 1804, suddenly the French colonial empire popped back into existence.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world confidently uses words like rijk (Dutch, cf. German Reich) or imperium to refer to an area of dominion, regardless whether the leadership consists of a monarchy or not.* For example, the Delian League has also been called the Athenian Empire.

Both the US and the EU in some ways behave imperialistically. Some have called the EU a neo-Holy Roman Empire. But unlike all empires before it, the EU is more comparable to the Foundation.

* Well, maybe not completely. Some German guy made the word rijk/Reich a bit less neutral than the word empire. But that's only an issue post-WW2.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #29 –
Old-style colonies are not around that much anymore.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #30 –
is Selling some stuff is some kind of  imperialism ? .

i sense , Western Tradition is create new tech then sell it to another land .

they give you stuff that not exist in your land .

so after you addicted , then you will be depended to them  :eek:

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #31 –
Here's an interesting overview page: http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/EUmpire.html

Quote
All previous empires grew by conquests through force and violence. But now there seems to be a fundamentally new kind of empire: the European Union. Its hesitant and peaceful growth has been fueled not by imposing its will on its neighbors, but by making them want to join, and accepting them only under certain conditions.

That is exactly what I meant when I compared the EU to the Foundation.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Here's an interesting overview page: http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/EUmpire.html

Quote
All previous empires grew by conquests through force and violence. But now there seems to be a fundamentally new kind of empire: the European Union. Its hesitant and peaceful growth has been fueled not by imposing its will on its neighbors, but by making them want to join, and accepting them only under certain conditions.

That is exactly what I meant when I compared the EU to the Foundation.

Do you think it will work with Ukraine? Take your pick, eastern or western.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Sparta on

The U.s is not even Close to an empire .

the Congress can Impeach aka Fired the President .

while in Ancient Kingdom, No one can touch  the King  ::)

Nonsense. I bet you didn't know that some empires actually elected their emperors.

Quote from: Sparta on

while in the U.S , everyone can be the King aka President .

More nonsense. Hint: running for president costs money. Shitloads of money.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Okay, so let me get this straight:

In 1792, the French colonial empire ceased to be one.
In 1804, suddenly the French colonial empire popped back into existence.


And the roman empire only became one in byzantine times when they went to more or less official monarchy :right:

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #35 –
Indeed, Augustus utilized a loophole in the Roman constitution so that, in modern terms, he was president for life.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #36 –
if Rome was a Republic .

then U.S was an Imperialis  :up:

now that makes a sense .

I hope that's not a straw man  :beard:

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #37 –
Concessions in China



International
Shanghai International Settlement (merger of British and American concessions; 1863-1945)
Beijing Legation Quarter (1861-1945)
Gulangyu Island (1903-45)

Austro-Hungarian
Austro-Hungarian concession in Tianjin (1902-17)

Belgian
Belgian concession in Tianjin (1902-31)

British
Hong Kong colony (1841-1997)
Weihaiwei leased territory (1898-1930)
British concession in Tianjin (1860-1943)
British concession in Hankou (1861-1927)
British concession in Jiujiang (1861-1927)
British concession in Zhenjiang (1861-1929)
British concession in Shamian Island, Guangzhou (1861-1945)
British concession in Amoy (1852-1930)
British concession in Shanghai (1846-63; merged to form Shanghai International Settlement)

French
Kwang-Chou-Wan leased territory (1898-1946)
French Concession in Shanghai (1849-1946)
French Concession in Shamian Island, Guangzhou (1861-1946)
French Concession in Hankou (1896-1946)
French concession in Tianjin (1861-1946)

German
Kiautschou Bay leased territory (1898-1914)
German concession in Hankou (1895-1917)
German concession in Tianjin (1895-1917)

Italian
Italian concession in Tianjin (1902-47)

Japanese
Taiwan colony (1895-1945)
Kwantung Leased Territory/South Manchuria Railway Zone (1905-45; obtained from Russia)
Kiautschou Bay leased territory (1914-22; obtained from Germany)
Japanese concession in Tianjin (1898-1943)
Japanese concession in Hankou (1898-1943)
Japanese concession in Chongqing (1901-31)
Japanese concession in Suzhou (1897-1943)
Japanese concession in Hangzhou (1897-1943)

Portuguese
Macau colony (1557-1999)

Russian
Russian Dalian (1898-1905)
Russian concession in Tianjin (1900-24)
Russian concession in Hankou (1896-1924)
Chinese Eastern Railway, Harbin (1896-1952)

United States
American concession in Shanghai (1848-63; merged to form Shanghai International Settlement)
American concession in Tianjin (1860-1902; merged to form British concession in Tianjin)

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #38 –
The Chinese tend to think that wherever Genghis Khan stepped is China. What they forget there is that Genghis Khan was not even Chinese, but a conqueror of China along with the rest of his conquests.

Same with Russians. Their early statehood stems from Viking rulers, and the Romanov dynasty stems from an originally Prussian (that's Prussian, not Russian) prince. And most of their state territory is acquired by conquest. It's not their native land.

Same with Brits. They are shaped by Norman conquest themselves.

Same with United States.

Etc.

None of them has properly their land, country, or interests where they claim to have them.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #39 –
That reminds me of the TripleA Pacific scenario where you can play Japan (or against it). Unfortunately the AI isn't particularly strong, but getting a group of humans together is nigh impossible.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #40 –
Genghis Khan didn't conquer China, Kublai Khan did, starting the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368).
Quote
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
   Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round;
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.


Something similar happened with the Qing dynasty (1644-1912), when invading Manchus took advantage of a protracted Ming civil war. The red line above is the Qing boundary.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #41 –
I'm not sure if laudanum-induced hallucinations are really the best source for historical facts. :P

Genghis Kahn may not have conquered all of China, but Kublai Kahn started his conquests of the remainder from Northern China iirc.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Sparta on

if Rome was a Republic .

then U.S was an Imperialis  :up:

Well, the US founders did take a few hints from the roman republic.

Seriously, roman emperors had little to nothing to do with late medieval / early modern absolute monarchs. For starters, the emperors were chosen by the senate. What made them 'emperors' was the fact that they were customarily appointed consul and censor for life - the two highest offices the republic had. And they were not exactly beyond recall either.

Then, 'ancient kingdoms' is completely meaningless without context. For example, early germanic kings were military leaders elected by the warrior class, and could be recalled for any reason. Here is an example.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #43 –
Quote from: jax on

Genghis Khan didn't conquer China, Kublai Khan did, starting the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368).

...which makes it even more irrational for the Chinese to regard Genghis Khan as some kind of hero of their own.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #44 –
How about modern heroes?

Mao Zedong- No need to explain that one.

Yang Liwei- an astronaut and People's Republic of China's first man in outer space.

Fei Junlong- an astronaut piloting Shenzhou VI, a PLA Air Force PLAAF pilot, flight trainer and technology inspector.

We've been through astronaut idolatry, too.

Apparently the Chinese don't have their version of the Kardashians.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

I'm not sure if laudanum-induced hallucinations are really the best source for historical facts. :P

No, but pop music is.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ycCLXLiZWs[/video]
Quote from: Frenzie on
Genghis Kahn may not have conquered all of China, but Kublai Kahn started his conquests of the remainder from Northern China iirc.
Northern China has been a contested area  for a long time, the Great Wall was put up there for a reason, but the Song dynasty wasn't on their last song until later.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #46 –
Zhou Yongkang case set to expose the scale of the rot in China's elite politics
Quote from: SCMP
Less than 18 months after becoming general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, Xi Jinping is poised to cage the biggest political "tiger" - a corrupt top official - in the history of the People's Republic.

Although rumours of the imminent fall of former internal security chief Zhou Yongkang have been swirling for months, many observers remained unsure whether Xi would prosecute Zhou and thus break the party's long-established unwritten rule of immunity for sitting or retired members of the Politburo Standing Committee.

But doubts about Zhou's fate have now been dispelled by a recent flurry of uncensored news stories in the Chinese media that revealed shocking details of corruption involving Zhou's family and former subordinates.

It has been reported that the authorities recently searched the homes of Zhou's two brothers. Though these stories have yet to implicate Zhou directly, it will only be a matter of time before the Chinese government officially charges him with corruption.

Whispered reports are even more lurid. Zhou is said to have plotted to murder his first wife, and there are rumours that at the height of last year's scandal involving disgraced former Chongqing party boss Bo Xilai , he attempted to assassinate Xi in the leadership compound at Zhongnanhai.

Based on what the Chinese press has disclosed thus far, it is clear that the Zhou case will be the ugliest and most sensational scandal involving a senior party leader that the country has ever seen.

It will make Bo, an ally of Zhou and a former Politburo member who was sentenced to life imprisonment for corruption, look like a petty thief.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #48 –
Quote from: jax on

Zhou Yongkang case set to expose the scale of the rot in China's elite politics
Quote from: SCMP
Less than 18 months after becoming general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, Xi Jinping is poised to cage the biggest political "tiger" - a corrupt top official - in the history of the People's Republic.

Although rumours of the imminent fall of former internal security chief Zhou Yongkang have been swirling for months, many observers remained unsure whether Xi would prosecute Zhou and thus break the party's long-established unwritten rule of immunity for sitting or retired members of the Politburo Standing Committee.

There never was such unwritten rule. Mao re-arranged his close circle every once in a while, like Stalin. After Mao's death, his ambitious last wife was brought down from power. Etc. The question is not (only) that of corruption, but whether the top notch in the party has the balls to be dictatorial or is he more collegial.

Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: jax on
Concessions in China

And so what?

These historical concessions are relevant when considering what the Estonia-China border would look like after Russia's collapse.

Re: What's Going on in China?

Reply #49 –
Quote from: ersi on
...which makes it even more irrational for the Chinese to regard Genghis Khan as some kind of hero of their own.


They do? I haven't seen any Chinese (except possibly by a Mongolian by kinship) claim of ownership of Genghis Khan. The Möngke and Kublai Khans seem to have had more of the Chinese attention.

China and the US have a similar background. Both had a frontier culture with a Wild West sparsely populated by commonly hostile tribes, and a "civilized" East with a much higher population and generally higher technology (though the technology gap was much smaller than in North America).

The difference is that in China, after another of those protracted civil wars, one of the "Indian" tribes won the war, which from an imperial point of view turned out to be good. Kublai Khan and the rest of the Yuan dynasty subdued the competition. Furthermore the Mongols reconnected Eurasia, to the benefit of the Chinese and particularly the Europeans (Marco Polo and all that).

The Yuan/Ming transition, like today's People's Republic/Republic (Beijing/Taipei), had two parallel claimants to China, until Yuan lost the mandate of heavens. 



The history of China is the history of empire, but China never had colonies.