Diseur?

Topic: Diseur? (Read 7620 times)

Diseur?

2013-11-25, 23:44:01

Shall we talk in verse? Can we make more sense by trying to…?

I'd -perhaps obviously, perhaps not; but I proclaim it!- prefer each one's language be permitted. The interplay of translations is a major part of what our forums are about… (I'd even discuss Ideas themselves!) So, communication becomes an overarching concern.

But is there more?

Do tell! Then, let's discuss it.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #1 – 2013-11-26, 10:33:44

This is a very mind demanding thread...

Re: Diseur?

Reply #2 – 2013-11-26, 10:49:28

Would you please say a poem in English?
Certainly, of course, why not...
Hey, is it going to be rubbish?
Mention a pair of boobs and it'll be hot...

beautiful, better than Shakespeare.
sorry for the metrics... but the theme compensates it.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #3 – 2013-11-26, 21:39:58

Este mês feliz afirma
com a tristeza que será ...
quando fórum do Opera,
já não nossa casa,
finalmente nos liberta.

[My original, composed with its machine-translation in real-time…]
This happy month contends
with the sadness that will be…
when Opera's forum,
no longer our home,
finally sets us free.

Indeed, the metrical aspect of each language is key!
But -I ask, with all due respect- how did we (Google Translate and me) do?

An alternate translation:

[ ... ]
quando fórum da Opera -
não mais a nossa casa -
[ ... ]

"não mais a nossa casa" seems wrong, to me… But it has the rhythm I expect — from ignorance. And, no, I'd take that back: the first works as well, and better; it captures the "meaning"…whereas the latter lets it loose. (The sense of time, passing, is lost. Or is it?)
Yet I'd prefer "quando fórum da Opera" — and wouldn't you? (Else how we say "the Bitch…"?

)

(Or this:
Hoc mense felix contendit
in tristitia erit ...
Opera, cum est forum -
non domum -
denique libertatem debemus.

So help me! I can hear a sort of rhyme that works, there! And I'm still only on my second glass of beer!)

Translated back into English, it is (by the same machine):

This month, he contends happy
will be misery ...
Works with the market -
not a house -
Finally, sets us free.

Schadenfreude?

Would you critique such as this?

Re: Diseur?

Reply #4 – 2013-11-27, 10:15:45

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2013-11-26, 21:39:58

Este mês feliz afirma
com a tristeza que será ...
quando fórum do Opera,
já não nossa casa,
finalmente nos liberta.

Congratulations, very close to be correct, you just missed a couple of articles and mixed future with present, but perfectly understandable and, specially, interesting since you base at the contradictory feelings of sadness and liberation.
However, I'm afraid there's a small problem with rhyme...

My experiment was the first time I ever tried to think about words in English that could rhyme, not worrying too much about the sense, about the meaning, just to make it not too much nonsense.

Now, I tried to think in English directly so I could knew the rhymes, while your original was thought in your language and then translated by a machine that you had no idea what would come out... (luck with an outcome not too bad.)

This small experiment tells me that's not possible to create poetry in a different language without being able to think fluently at that language. We can't just translate it.
In my case, can't create not even in my own language... he he

A possible (small) correction for you poem:

Este mês feliz afirma
com a tristeza (do) que será ...
quando (o) fórum do Opera,
já não (mais) nossa casa,
finalmente nos ~~liberta~~. (libertará)

Exactly the same meaning but just perfect!

The meaning has almost an heroic component of salvation through freedom by own death... expressing the deep sadness that it provokes.
You're a better Portuguese poet than American, I'm afraid...

(será and libertará rhymes very well, opera and casa don't, because Opera has a strong accentuation in O and casa in ca. (See? to know the language it's fundamental for rhyming.)

Re: Diseur?

Reply #5 – 2013-11-27, 16:02:31

Quote from: Belfrager on 2013-11-27, 10:15:45

However, I'm afraid there's a small problem with rhyme...
[...]while your original was thought in your language and then translated by a machine that you had no idea what would come out... (luck with an outcome not too bad.)

Oh, not entirely luck: Composition took place simultaneously in English and Portuguese... Google's machine provided (computer) speech as well as text. (But that has its own ~~pitfalls~~ aggravations! The cadences are -- well, machine-like…) So, as best I could, I kept both in view, for sense and sound.
And -as I'd surmised- the sound was harder.

Quote from: Belfrager

This small experiment tells me that's not possible to create poetry in a different language without being able to think fluently at that language. We can't just translate it.

I certainly agree that a mere translation (of poetry) doesn't suffice. But study, experiment and diligence should -before full fluency- yield satisfactory results, no?

Quote from: Belfrager

In my case, can't create not even in my own language... he he

Too much modesty!

I'm told, Rome wasn't built in a day...

Quote from: Belfrager

A possible (small) correction:

quando o fórum do Opera,
já não mais nossa casa,
finalmente nos libertará

(será and libertará rhymes very well, opera and casa don't, because Opera has a strong accentuation in O and casa in ca. (See? to know the language it's fundamental for rhyming.))

Yes, libertará is certainly better! But I'd rather not have anything so near a rhyme — with Opera and casa… The English version has fo´-rum and home.
Is there some locution that allows the reversal of the possessive phrase's elements? (E.g., in English: the forum of Opera/Opera's forum…)

Or: sendo a nossa casa já não, (?)
Does that sound better to you?

Re: Diseur?

Reply #6 – 2013-11-27, 17:59:19

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2013-11-27, 16:02:31

Is there some locution that allows the reversal of the possessive phrase's elements? (E.g., in English: the forum of Opera/Opera's forum…)

Well, there is... a far-fetched way of saying, I must say... but seen often in poetry.
O fórum do Opera/ Do Opera era seu fórum

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

Oh, not entirely luck: Composition took place simultaneously in English and Portuguese... Google's machine provided (computer) speech as well as text. (But that has its own pitfalls aggravations! The cadences are -- well, machine-like…) So, as best I could, I kept both in view, for sense and sound.
And -as I'd surmised- the sound was harder.

What makes poetry different from prose? more than the content it's certainly the sound rhythm, cadence and rhyme. (let's put apart that kind of futuristic/modernist poetry without rhyme)

I'll read your poem so you can have the perfect notion of your creation, your effort deserves it...

I'll post the file soon.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #7 – 2013-11-27, 18:10:56

Quote from: Belfrager

(let's put apart that kind of futuristic/modernist poetry without rhyme)

(Please! Let's do!

) But also note that not every line should rhyme: There's such a thing as too much of a good thing…

Quote from: Belfrager

I'll read your poem…

Would you use both your corrected version and my last emendation too? I'd greatly appreciate it.

A further thought: Is "a nossa casa já não" too ungrammatical? Or "sendo nossa lar já não"…? (I like the last!)

Re: Diseur?

Reply #8 – 2013-11-27, 19:19:20

Ok, done.

Follow the link and just download the file. Then, use your usual mp3 player to listen.
http://www.datafilehost.com/d/2b5083d6

Tried to embed some tiny mp3 player at the post but it doesn't seems to be possible, have to ask Frenzie about it.

I'm sure that you'll find your poem very much different from what you thought it to be... he he

Regarding the last alterations you proposed, forget it. Don't touch what's already good.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #9 – 2013-11-27, 19:35:46

There's a mod that does HTML5 video and audio. It looks alright, but since it hasn't been updated since 2011 it uses some outdated stuff. Also, mp3 won't work on all browsers, but Vorbis has better quality anyway.

Actually Opus is significantly better still, but I think it's only supported in Firefox. I'll take it into consideration, but it'd require you to have a proper file host.

Btw, I was reading some poetry last year and decided to try my hand at poetry translation.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #10 – 2013-11-27, 20:51:02

Thanks much, Belfrager! Yes, it sounds quite different from what I expected… But scanning the lines as you read them helped. (Many elisions confuse my ears… The phonemic values of Portuguese are

foreign, to me.)

Quote from: Belfrager

Regarding the last alterations you proposed, forget it. Don't touch what's already good.

But that's not my way!
I've been known to return to even short pieces, after decades, to make minor changes; or even start anew.

The mp3 format plays directly from my desktop, since an iTunes helper dœmon is always running.

@Frenzie: Pretty good, for an impromptu translation! (The poem itself is good, too.)

Re: Diseur?

Reply #11 – 2013-11-27, 21:11:02

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

But that's not my way!
I've been known to return to even short pieces, after decades, to make minor changes; or even start anew.

Ah, a perfectionist. Perfectionists are always the worst...

Please note that your poem could perfectly be read with a different punctuation and/or voice inflection than the ones I used. That was a personal choice, a prerogative from the diseur...

Quote from: Frenzie

Btw, I was reading some poetry last year and decided to try my hand at poetry translation.
Quote
Bang, again a corpse. So be good.

Why do poems or stories to/regarding children have so often a touch of cruelty?

Poor children...

Re: Diseur?

Reply #12 – 2013-11-27, 22:14:37

Quote from: Belfrager

a prerogative from the diseur...

But of course!

Quote from: Belfrager

Why do poems or stories to/regarding children have so often a touch of cruelty?

The simple answer is that they are true savages and can, only step by step, be civilized… We'd (most parents) prefer to teach the necessary lessons without resorting to physical violence. So, we speak to them on their (primal) level —to amuse and, may-haps, bemuse, hoping that our continued show of interest eventually leads them to wonder why our civility persists.

(a first draft)

What haunts the nightly dreams of children
seems a trifle, easy quelled:
Back to sleep they drift; we're clever!
Never did they see us belled…

They, as we are wont to know them,
'habit climes that we've forgot:
Places where the very weather
makes us shiver, rakes our lot;

withers, all, our proud and prudent
ploys and gambits, each one fraught
with insincere and half-intended
consequence — the measure taught

by our — shall we say? — our love?
'Tis the rule they're meant to prove.

This is a rude concept; and, whether by lack or luck, I've used some old, very old techniques to achieve my aim… Since everyone knows how the rhymes should go, "breaking them" means something, all by itself.
Still, the intent is only important if the poem succeeds.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #13 – 2013-11-28, 08:06:04

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

Quote from: Belfrager
Why do poems or stories to/regarding children have so often a touch of cruelty?
The simple answer is that they are true savages and can, only step by step, be civilized…

The Lord of the Flies...

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

So, we speak to them on their (primal) level —to amuse and, may-haps, bemuse, hoping that our continued show of interest eventually leads them to wonder why our civility persists.

There we have an interesting idea about what children's education is about... that I entirely subscribe

However, I doubt very much that mothers will agree...

But I have a different explanation for the reason of cruelty on children stories. To me, most children's literature must be made by dangerous maniacs that only have people's approval because the books helps to put children sleeping and no one question too much the book's content...

Re: Diseur?

Reply #14 – 2013-11-28, 09:17:34

Quote from: Belfrager

most children's literature must be made by dangerous maniacs that only have people's approval because the books helps to put children sleeping and no one question too much the book's content...

I'd agree — if I didn't know better.
Children bring one back to one's "original" state: Sure and confused!
As a rock singer (Seager?) said, long ago, "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then…"

Quote from: Belfrager

However, I doubt very much that mothers will agree...

They will, when they have no other choice…

I'm on my fourth go-round dealing with little ones! And I'm still learning, from them!

Re: Diseur?

Reply #15 – 2013-11-28, 09:42:55

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

Quote from: Belfrager
However, I doubt very much that mothers will agree...
They will, when they have no other choice…

He he, well... I think that we have to wait for DnD's resident mothers to say what do they think...

You know perfectly that no matter what's the reality, to mothers their children are always the sweetest little creatures in the world... true angels... no way such adorable creatures can be the uneducated intolerable savages they obviously are... and this is worsening every day, fruit of modern educational standards.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #16 – 2013-11-28, 09:58:20

Quote from: Belfrager

to mothers their children are always the sweetest little creatures in the world... true angels... no way such adorable creatures can be the uneducated intolerable savages they obviously are...

Forgive my presumption, but that's not true!
I've known many mothers. (Even myself made a few…) They're not all simple, smug and shrill. Most know quite well what they've got and what strength of will it takes to structure the day-to-day environment of their charges.
Convincing them that you are not one of them is the hardest task. It's easy enough.
But finding one who'd accept the conviction is very hard…

Re: Diseur?

Reply #17 – 2013-11-29, 13:08:46

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

Convincing them that you are not one of them is the hardest task.

There's no way one can convince a woman. If you think you can that's because she was already willing to "be convinced".
Women can't be convinced, they can only be seduced. Simple as that.

Re: Diseur?

Reply #18 – 2013-11-29, 17:07:25

Technically, that's known as a conceit...

Re: Diseur?

Reply #19 – 2013-11-29, 20:44:47

My language has no translation for such a thing as a "conceit"...

Re: Diseur?

Reply #20 – 2013-11-29, 20:55:39

A conceit is an extended metaphor. In French it's called a spun or labored metaphor (métaphore filée).

Re: Diseur?

Reply #21 – 2013-11-29, 22:29:41

And the one I refer to has a common name (as Belfrager's Smiley shows he understands...): machismo!

Re: Diseur?

Reply #22 – 2013-11-30, 08:24:24

Quote from: OakdaleFTL

And the one I refer to has a common name (as Belfrager's Smiley shows he understands...): machismo!

Yes, I had an idea about how the word was used. That's the last thing in the world I could care about... I'm aware that amongst the Anglo Saxons it is seen as the worst sin one can be accused of, to us it only makes us laugh.

In fact, my words were very flattering for women. At least, any intelligent woman.