Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #750 – 2014-07-30, 18:59:56 Quote from: krake on 2014-07-30, 16:46:29Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-07-30, 16:02:05We are not even we.Lemme tell you what we are. A buffer zone for someone in case something very nasty should happen.Perspicacious from your part.My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #751 – 2014-07-30, 22:46:09 Aye right. Best method of defence..... neat clever clogs dance there boy.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #752 – 2014-07-31, 05:26:04 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-28, 17:20:02Russia has never said it wants East Ukraine it is all scurrilous US screaming propaganda and you insult your grey cells just accepting bland answers. II'm surprised you never heard that actions speak louder than words. They probably don't want to annex it, yet. But rather to create a puppet or buffer state and leave Ukraine as weaken rump state.Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-29, 23:15:38The anti-Russian attacks are over the top and need scaling down whilst the same time there has to be dialogue regarding Ukraine AND Russia.Which attacks are over the top? Just about everything important said about Russia has held true. Those indeed were Russian soldiers occupying Crimea, despite Putin's initial claims. Russia continues to supply weapons to the separatists despite their displays of viciousness/incompetence or some deadly combination of the two. Russia says it wants peace, but again the actions speak louder than words.Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-29, 23:15:38Now just as I presumed the US is giving money to the Kiev regimeI hope so. The former pro-Russian president drove the country into the ground, meanwhile the current events supported by Russia are damaging the country further. They do need help rebuilding after the damage Putin the Terrible caused, not to mention building some kind of credible defense against Russia. The only problem is that if Putin grows even more arrogant, it will be case of Poland vs Nazi Germany no matter what Ukraine tries to do.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #753 – 2014-07-31, 07:39:35 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-07-30, 18:59:56My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.As we say over here, the way to secure a prosperous future is to declare war on Sweden and surrender immediately.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #754 – 2014-07-31, 10:25:37 Quote from: ersi on 2014-07-31, 07:39:35Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-07-30, 18:59:56My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.As we say over here, the way to secure a prosperous future is to declare war on Sweden and surrender immediately.Don't be like that... let us dream that we can still attack someone...What a misery.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #755 – 2014-07-31, 11:13:17 Germany is behaving exactly as per the logic of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. History repeating itself.Germany's 'secret deal with Russia to end violence in Ukraine which would see Crimea officially annexed in exchange for $1billion'
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #756 – 2014-07-31, 11:35:28 You never have Neville Chamberlain running around when you really need him.Translated-- Putin has no desire to take more land--- In a pig's eye.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #757 – 2014-07-31, 14:58:39 Oh what a non-surprise with the usual brain dead stuff from Americans. Ukraine is a large country in the area (do try and use geography) before this junk about a rump State. When you consider the modern imperial way of the US it really is a bit much for them to accuse someone else. Where are the scores of Russia bases around the world, fleets like over near China doing an intimidation and so on. You folk are so far up your own arrogance and country conceit you cannot see very well. Your propaganda is unbelievable. Tirades, lies, lack of evidence but make the muck stick. And that other stupid comment about where was Chamberlain when you need him is another ex-colonist nonsense. You lot took your time in the 1st WW and the same in the 2nd. You only came into the war in the Far east when Japan did the dirty on you and there are some historians who would say there was an idea of an attack.Trouble is that due to the power of the economic industry over the pond excuses to do in countries is a ploy. Once a country had been over intimidated or taken over in come the Wall Street barons to make their money. This is followed by business and then a military base to justify "looking after American interests." Maybe someone could explain properly why the US led the support of the criminals and neo-Nazis that did their dastardly uprising in Kiev/ Why the East was treated at the end of a barge pole even though much of the industry was there. Indeed the east was treated abominably by thee US led West. Those Nazis are still at it in Kiev by the way and will not go quietly. Jews better watch out and now the Kiev Communist party is being threatened with banning because it doesn't have enough MP's in the joke of a parliament. For a country that boasts about democracy and rights the US is a giant liar machine.Kiev still needs a link with Russia for obvious reasons and Moscow is supposed to take all the lies, inferences and make-believe Kiev and the White House cook up. You just have to watch the response of the White House staff in answering questions at the press briefings. Even the CNN rep got rather tired of the lack of honesty which tells you something. Ukraine would be a drain on the EEC an d yet the Kiev government makes no effort to discuss with the people in the east of it's won country. American pushes them along for a dig at Russia because it is one of the few countries in the world that the US cannot control in it's imperial nonsense. Billions will be dished out apparently from DC to Kiev even though the ex-colognes have a crippling debt they are stupidly stuck with. Russia gave Ukraine a giant help with it's fuel discount but the Kiev nationalist frenzy ignores that! If Kiev becomes a financial disaster it is self-inflicted. The insurrectionists who overthrew the elected government so how does the wonderful land of the free jump into bed with that. Especially as the former President was taking time to rethink his stance. But it is what suits the great US of A, time after time.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #758 – 2014-07-31, 18:03:52 Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-07-31, 11:35:28You never have Neville Chamberlain running around when you really need him.Translated-- Putin has no desire to take more land--- In a pig's eye.Neville Chamberlain? I'm sure that if he would be alive he would be proud to see the new leader of the civilized world and enjoy its moral authority as we all do.War made easy, brainwashing with tradition.No, this time it's not about Putin and his state controlled evil propaganda. Nor is it about Putin's ambitions to rule the world.It's a documentary made by Norman SolomonSince the documentary was made 2007, it is incomplete. Too bad because nothing changed since.War Made Easy (2007) - the documentary
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #759 – 2014-07-31, 18:55:29 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-31, 14:58:39Where are the scores of Russia bases around the world,You don't know how to do an internet search yet? Now Russia's the one building bases around the world.Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-31, 14:58:39Once a country had been over intimidated or taken over in come the Wall Street barons to make their money.In fact, investment from America and Western Europe might just be what the doctor ordered to jump start the Ukrainian economy. Certainly the western investors will make money, but the factories they build may well put hundreds of thousands of people to work directly with several times that number serving the factories and their workers from pubs to other plants producing parts needed at the factories. Basic Macroeconomics, Howie. However, your hero Putin continuing supply the separatists will weapons will serve as a disincentive to investment and deepen Ukraine's economic woes. Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-31, 14:58:39Indeed the east was treated abominably by thee US led West.How did the US lead the western Ukraine. Please do give specifics. Oh, there aren't any and you're just on an Anti-American rant? That's what I thought.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #760 – 2014-08-01, 12:48:44 Certainly the place needs investment but uyou are studiously ignoring that there are two different directions inside Ukraine - one to the EEC and the other to the east until Kiev is more sensible and does something sensible friction will continue.You really spoiled your last comment there by falling back on the handy excuse of an ant-American rant. Always handy when you lot are so brained by your media and corporate politicians in what passes for a democracy. As for me making up the US rant on Ukraine let me remind you of this.When the gangsters started their hell in the Kiev square against what was a properly elected goverment the US came in and made it obvious where they were going to stand. Whether the government was a good one or not is a pasing point that WAS democracy. The more the square thugs did the more they were supported in destroying the government. A fact as I stated was that the then President was re-thinking his stance but never got the chance to follow through being deposed and this too was supported by the US. Your Vice-President made his presence very much didn't he? So too did that yack mouth above him. This was followed by that unbelievable, utterly stupid and brainless Senator McCain going for a walkabout with the thugs and proclaiming America was right behind them. So it shows that the word 'democracy' is a flexible one for the USA.What you have unfortunately done is shown the often accusation that ex-colonists just absorb what the television suitably tells them has more than a grain of truth. All i have stated is factual so yet again the main thrust is ignored and scoffing rants thrown in as an answer. Small wonder the country (US) is in a mess and the people either getting lied to or speared by the Goebells style war of words being presently dished out. Russia stated from the early stage that there had to be dialogue between the Kiev junta and the East but was ignored but if Kerry now gets round to it then that is different of course! As the present President of Ukraine is not short of a a few banknotes he should get on well with the corporate rulers over the pond! May I yet again also remind that East Ukraine has a lot of the economy basis which you and your media brainers ignore. Let's not forget the killing of civilians in the East either. Today i noted a news comment about a number of Kiev soldiers killed by rebels and that one is interesting. I say that because the other way round it is mostly civilians who are getting murdered not the equivilant of soliders. Homes destroyed, while cities in as siege, water and electricity and food problems. Scores of thousands have had to flee over the Border as what else could they do?The propaganda also stretches to the site of the downed plane. One report today indicated that due to the fighting still going on around a very wide crash site no-one has control but to date we have been bombasted by guff that it is rebel held! However the Kiev President says they are not going out to kill civilians and their homes and towns but they are and the US in being 100% behind that man is just as guilty. So you can spout out what you want about accusing me just because your news media treats you all like the brain dead and sanitises what you are told.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #761 – 2014-08-09, 23:47:42 How interesting to note that the West's pals in that Kiev square - those neo-Nazis are still there and causing mayhem once more when the authorities tried to clear the place and started fighting the police - again! It is as I thought previously that they have an axe to grind and not letting to.They also fill the National Guard. One wonders why they still need to fight as they were very prominent in dissolving the previous legit government and then having some of the Nazi pals in as Ministers. Dear, oh dear.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #762 – 2014-08-12, 00:31:12 Kremlin Confirms Sending Non-Military Convoy with Aid to East UkraineDifferent from the Dutch Prime Minister, Putin is not the guy who'd promise something and then chicken out. The West has lost all chances to be relevant to the conflict in any way.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #763 – 2014-08-12, 09:30:23 280 Russian trucks carrying 2,000 tons of humanitarian aid.I miss images with trucks from Kiev carrying humanitarian aid. Kiev's humanitarian aid is probably carried by tanks and bomber jets.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #764 – 2014-08-12, 10:59:09 Quote from: ersi on 2014-08-12, 00:31:12The West has lost all chances to be relevant to the conflict in any way.The West, I mean the European Union, has lost all chances to be relevant anywhere.There's not any strategic concept regarding it's role in the world and even less the means or an unified will for applying it.As for the USA, I don't know what's the actual strategy, assuming they have any but I think Putin to be a bit too grown boy to them to play with.For strange (or not so strange) reasons, Putin is getting popular support amongst many Europeans that are clearly fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has. I don't trust a State turned into ex kgb agents personal datcha, already armed with the best available weaponry that money can buy, and very specially when it borders Europe. Too close to my likes to have such neighbor knocking at a defenseless Europe's door. And he's not the only one.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #765 – 2014-08-12, 11:52:19 After Ukraine and Russia did agree on aid mission, Ukraine is now denying permission to the convoy.Even Western media that supports the pack from Kiev reported about the agreement.Now "in Kiev, a government source, who did not wish to be named, said there had been no agreement for Russian vehicles to cross into Ukraine."Of course he did not wish to be named. How more perverse can it get?Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 10:59:09For strange (or not so strange) reasons, Putin is getting popular support amongst many Europeans that are clearly fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has.Not as much fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has but because they got tired of Washington's lies and its selfish acting/meddling all over the world, putting at risk the normal life of foes and friends.Keep in mind that without US meddling and turning gas into the fire we wouldn't even have this thread about Ukraine.Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #766 – 2014-08-12, 12:23:15 Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19After Ukraine and Russia did agree on aid mission, Ukraine is now denying permission to the convoy.Even Western media that supports the pack from Kiev reported about the agreement.Ukraine agreed on Red Cross aid mission with EU, US, and Russian participation. When Russia hastes in alone, of course this means trouble - by design. It's like UN missions in South Ossetia and Abkhasia with only Russian participation.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #767 – 2014-08-12, 12:26:42 Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?Germany, by waving them with the impossible dream of a EU adhesion that had to necessarily break the country and open all the space Putin needed.Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember? Luckily to Europe, Turkey was much clever than Ukraine.Disaster after disaster.Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?I'm part of NATO, so does most of the western world. There's no obligations to dividing influence with Russia but the contrary, this is not a game to be balanced and leveled but a conquering game - that's what Putin is playing.Russia it's winning for the moment being thanks to what I said - European's incompetence and American's terrified immobilization, they found someone that they can't play risks with.Russia "humanitarian help"? that's an invasion for all effects. After the food you'll need to sent the troops. Putin knows it all...
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #768 – 2014-08-12, 12:44:42 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?Germany, by waving them with the impossible dream of a EU adhesion that had to necessarily break the country and open all the space Putin needed.Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember?I also remember it exactly this way, with Germany leading. This Molotov-Ribbentrop Act II has been going on since Schröder. Really painful to watch, particularly in my location.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #769 – 2014-08-12, 14:09:43 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?Germany, ...Germany as well, alongside with other vassals. However it wasn't Germany who spent 5 billions for regime change in Ukraine. Germany (FM Steinmeier) together with the FMs of France, Poland, the special representative of the President of the RF, Viktor Yanukovych and representatives of the opposition agreed on free elections.The agreement was broken within 48 hours. The neofascist putschist group was imediatly recognized by the US and invited for talks to the USA. ("Fuck the EU")In case you're short of memory, here's a 'trustworthy' source.Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember? Luckily to Europe, Turkey was much clever than Ukraine.I remember perfectly. It's you who either distorts things on purpose or you speak about thinks you know little about.It was Turkey who wanted by all means to enter the EU. Germany gave Turkey the status of a preferential partnership as an appeasement but was reluctant for more despite of US insistence. At the end Erdogan gave up.Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 11:52:19Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?I'm part of NATO, ...Congratulations Let us know if you want to buy some more subs or frigates so you can be of some real use to NATO.Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42There's no obligations to dividing influence with Russia but the contrary, Of course not. Ever heared about the Cuban missile crisis? How would the US react with Russian or Chinese military bases in their neck?Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42this is not a game to be balanced and leveled but a conquering game - that's what Putin is playing.I see. The good guys on the one side and the bad guy on the other side.Nice to have such an educated man for explaining it.Just wondering if you would go to war (or sending your son to war) to fight for US geostrategic interests.Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42European's incompetence and American's terrified immobilization, they found someone that they can't play risks with.Imobilization? Risks? Are you complaining that WWIII didn't start already? Be patiently.BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 12:26:42Russia "humanitarian help"? that's an invasion for all effects.You're once again right. I'm impressed by the fascinatingly clear vision of yours. Only a Western coalition led by the USA would be capable of an humanitarian aid.But even better, let those terrorists starve to death or die to thirst. Who knows, maybe those Russian trucks are carrying thousands of Russian soldiers or some BUK missile systems.QuoteThousands of people are without access to water, electricity and medical aid in eastern Ukraine, the Red Cross said.At least 1,500 people have died since Ukraine's new government sent in troops to put down an insurrection by pro-Russia separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in mid-April.The fighting has displaced hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom have fled to Russia.More than 800,000 fled to Russia till now and the exodus continues. Wonder why those people don't choose to flee to Kiev.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #770 – 2014-08-12, 16:50:04 Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 14:09:43BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?Nope. Reading an exemplar post about how northern European pacifists keeps on preferring red than dead. You can substitute red by Putin's colors, if he has any, the result being the same - the illusion that applauses and adulation will save you, no it will not. In terms of geo strategy, for the best and the worst, the alliance with the USA it's everything Europeans have, to brake it without any alternative it's Putin's game. Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.Wake up, Krake. Your (rightful) anti Americanism it's throwing you right into Putin's arms, not a pleasant place to be. Last Edit: 2014-08-12, 17:08:32 by Belfrager
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #771 – 2014-08-12, 17:21:14 Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott and others are beginning to wonder too including interviews I have seen with Spanish producers. Our whisky industry is starting to be worried in case it gets added. The trouble is that America doesn't need to bother it's bum about any return sanctions but Europe does. Indeed America even had the gall to tell Europe even if difficult to maintain the "principle." Now how damn hypocritical is that from a smug corner. Now the USA is mumblng about South American nations dealing with Russia in spite of sanctions but I doubt if they are going to do much in view of the big trade and Putin's recent tour. This is just another example of the ex-colonies whom if it declares something it is almost divinely right but anyone else is the very opposite and automatically out.To make things worse the Kiev government has now listed a list of heavy sanctions against Russia trade-wise and it makes me shake my head at the crass stupidity of them. After all the east of Ukraine is where the main industry is and making it plain they don't care a damn about the people in that region. With the dead in the East now in 4 figures and virtually all civilians Kiev is in a roundaout fashion admitting what they have always denied - that they were not tar getting the innocent or their homes. pictures tell a different story as do the tens of thousands of innocents fleeing to Russia. And as I have previously indicated the Ukrainian Army is not that wonderfully concerned. In their list they have also included a definite instruction that their soldiers and the Nazis in the National Guard can fire at will with no warning. Something they have been doing for weeks. Once the east has been quelled a legacy of mistrust will be left behind and the West is as guilty as the crackers in Kiev. Why too are the Nazi lot still in that Kiev square? Kiev just thinks they can stick the collecting can out to their bosom imperial pals in Washington DC
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #772 – 2014-08-12, 17:53:32 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 16:50:04Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 14:09:43BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?Nope. Reading an exemplar post about how northern European pacifists keeps on preferring red than dead. You can substitute red by Putin's colors, if he has any, the result being the same - the illusion that applauses and adulation will save you, no it will not.So I was right. It seems you are reading indeed Mc Cain like wisdoms Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 16:50:04Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.At least we can agree on this one. Their fear that Russia could be integrated into Europe was successfully pulverized by our transatlantic masters. Nothing can now overshadow a long term Sino-Russian alliance.That's just the beginning. We will witness more alliances in the near term. I doubt that any of us both will be enthusiastic about them.Good luck my philosophic Portuguese hero!Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 16:50:04Wake up, Krake. Your (rightful) anti Americanism it's throwing you right into Putin's arms, not a pleasant place to be. I'm awake.It seems that even some of the closest US enthusiasts are awakening too.The below article is from the chief editor of "Handelsblatt" a business newspaper, as transatlantic friendly as you can get.The West on the wrong path
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #773 – 2014-08-12, 18:18:21 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-12, 17:21:14Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott ...Not only Poland but all those dwarfs who have screamed for sanctions alongside the USA.Now they are demanding reparations from Brussels. Wonder who they think will pay their losses. Greece? Portugal? Spain? Italy? France?Germany can't bailout whole Europe even if it would want to. Nice perspective for Europe. And that US spokesman for Europe, Anders Fogh Rasmussen wants to sell more weapons as a way out.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #774 – 2014-08-13, 04:08:48 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-12, 17:21:14Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott and others are beginning to wonder too including interviews I have seen with Spanish producers. Based on interviews with Spanish producers you would not see Poland in tears. Unless you are RJ. Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 17:53:32Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-12, 16:50:04Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.At least we can agree on this one. Their fear that Russia could be integrated into Europe was successfully pulverized by our transatlantic masters. Nothing can now overshadow a long term Sino-Russian alliance.The German (or krakean) hope that Russia could be integrated into Europe is futile imagination. Given Russian geopolitical essence and historical psyche, Russia can never be integrated. Particularly it cannot be integrated the way Germany planned to: Puffing Russia up by buying gas and flirting with Ukrainian integration at the same time, making Russia perceive an obvious double game. You had it coming that Russia would get upset and begin a war of some sort or another. For me the war in Europe started when Crimea was grabbed. The fact that Germany hasn't acknowledged the seriousness of the situation and that Ukraine (obedient to its "allies") didn't declare war at this early stage is just a formality on one hand and a political mistake on the other. Russians only have respect for those who beat them, such as Finns.That the Chinese had any fear of Russian integration anywhere is complete delusion. China and Russia both view themselves as empires, ever-independent divine entities that integrate others whenever they please and never dissolve themselves. Yep, just like US.Quote from: krake on 2014-08-12, 18:18:21Not only Poland but all those dwarfs who have screamed for sanctions alongside the USA.Now they are demanding reparations from Brussels. Wonder who they think will pay their losses. Greece? Portugal? Spain? Italy? France?Germany can't bailout whole Europe even if it would want to. Nice perspective for Europe. And that US spokesman for Europe, Anders Fogh Rasmussen wants to sell more weapons as a way out.Absolutely every country between Germany and Russia saw Russian counter-sanctions coming from afar and spoke about it on the sanctions meetings. It's in the newspapers! (in ours at least, not in yours, I guess) The sanctions on EU side should have been designed to make it harder for Russia to apply counter-sanctions, but instead the big dummies chose to put together sanctions that would not be too hard on themselves, ending up with something that Russia counters and laughs at. Fail in every way, as predicted.We here next to Russia have seen Russians playing a selective little-sanctions game throughout the decades, and we have been talking about it on the EU level all the time, but nobody was listening. Germany and France have not even listened even to Finland, the country who definitely knows Russia best and has demonstrated the shrewdest diplomacy in Russia-relations. Germany, France and UK have foolishly been playing their own games in their own disparate self-interests when they could have learned something important and built a EU that could have had some importance in the world arena.And now when Russia imposes wider sanctions, to the alleged surprise of EU3, sanctions that hit the in-between countries hardest, even though we have suffered from this all along anyway without any EU attention paid to it, now Germany only sees it in terms of bailout? This EU must end better sooner than later. I want no part in this.
Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 229938 times)
