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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 229499 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #700 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

The voter participation rate, in fact, is part of the problem. As of 2000, the Russian majority as 55% and falling fast. Newer data doesn't seem to be available, but the demographic trend calls into question if Russians were actually a majority at the time of referendum. The results were have required the majority of both the Ukrainians and Tartars voting to join Russia. If the turnout have been say 55%. at least we can say that the other ethnic groups didn't vote in large numbers.

That claim is stupid to say the least. Either you didn't bother to inform yourself or you are ignoring facts deliberately.
It was a very important vote for the Crimean people, not only for those of Russian ethnicity. It was a crucial vote concerning their future, strictly speaking their future living standards. Are you aware that Russian living standards (as low as they are compared to some Western countries) are at least three times higher compared to the Ukrainian one? Why do you think that many Ukrainian soldiers from Crimea have opted for changing sides? Because they are in love with Putin?
Are you aware that pensions in Crimea have doubled (not only for those of Russian ethnicity) since it became part of the Russian Federation?
As you can see (or at least I hope so) it was not only a political choice of the voters but mostly a pragmatical one.

The Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in the region. You can consider the Romanians wealthy compared to it and as it looks for now it will become worse.
At the same time Kiev plays war games shelling its own people. Wonder wherefrom Kiev is taking advice ...

As a side note:
US approval rates were very high in the Ukraine before the crisis, namely 80%.
Now since the crisis they have dropped to 57%. A paradox? ...

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Why did the Russians try to deny the observers access?

You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #701 –
Quote from: krake on
You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.

They were stopped by Russian troops. Here choose your source. Oh, Putin did claim the troops doing that weren't Russian. Of course he also said the other troops in Crimea weren't his either.
Quote from: krake on
The Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in the region. You can consider the Romanians wealthy compared to it and as it looks for now it will become worse.
At the same time Kiev plays war games shelling its own people. Wonder wherefrom Kiev is taking advice ..

How weird you didn't mention those towns fell into the hands pro-Russian terrorists. It's war is because the Russians started it. You also forgot to mention Russia shooting down a Ukrainian jet over Ukrainian airspace
 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #702 –
Fair points there krake in the face of Sanguinemoon's easy brain absorption of Kiev (support at any cost by Obama). The White House chooses very neatly which lies to believe. Several times Kiev has landed shells over the Border into Russia and recently doe this again at a border crossing and other collateral damage.  Now the Kiev propganda accuses Russia of downing one of their fighter planes by rocket. I would remind that the "rebels" in East ukraine have already downed a plane by rocket so don't need the Russians to do it for them. Russia has strongly argued for dialigoue as well as more autonomy for a region that has bo interest in being part of europe. The east should be regarded more by Kiev and the Sanguinemoons of this world as it produces much of the Ukraine national income.

Now obama is upping the sanctions on dubious claims that he suits to believe from Kiev and this is a damnable disgracxe. Even more so as Europe does 10 times the business with Russia that America does but the EEC is whimperingly following the dog's lead and well knows that it will suffer more in money with Russia trade than America. In the longer term this may have repercussions not taken on board by Obama's determination to take on anyone who does not accept the US's self-belief in deciding how the world will be run. The utter crassness even though Russia has shown great diplomatic skills and patience.

Of Kiev keeps going on accusing russia of everything excvpet raining times whilst not paying a discounted fuel supply debt to Russia then heaven help the country. The time will come when russia gets fed up with shells plunking over the border causing damage there. And the sillyness from Sanguinemoon on referendums. It it suits the White House referendums are of course fine but if not they are immoral and non-democratic! Talk about wanting cake and eating it.  Russia had been very considerable and patient but they will rightly build of their practical defence and if Kiev keeps up what they are doing heaven help them when Russia gets fed up being ostracised, lied about and treated scurriously by the West.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #703 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Russia has strongly argued for dialigoue as well as more autonomy for a region that has bo interest in being part of europe
Good to hear. So when are they planning on giving Ukraine's territory back and stop supporting civil war by ceasing support for the terrorists rebels?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #704 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Quote from: krake on
You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.

They were stopped by Russian troops. Here choose your source.

From the mouth of your horse:
OSCE refuses to monitor 'illegal' Crimean referendum
Or quoting the chair of the Vienna-based OSCE:
Quote
In its current form the referendum ... is in contradiction with the Ukrainian constitution and must be considered illegal," Swiss Foreign Minister Didier Burkhalter, whose country is the current chair of the Vienna-based OSCE, said in a statement. Bla, bla bla ...

Source: Crimea referendum illegal, no OSCE monitoring - Swiss

I hope that is clear enough even for you Sang  :)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #705 –
Quote from: krake on

Or quoting the chair of the Vienna-based OSCE:
Quote
In its current form the referendum ... is in contradiction with the Ukrainian constitution and must be considered illegal," Swiss Foreign Minister Didier Burkhalter, whose country is the current chair of the Vienna-based OSCE, said in a statement. Bla, bla bla ...

Source: Crimea referendum illegal, no OSCE monitoring - Swiss

I hope that is clear enough even for you Sang  :)


From the "Bla, bla bla …" part of the article:
Quote from: http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idINDEEA2A0DS20140311
For the past week, OSCE military observers have been unable to enter Crimea, which has come under control of Russian forces since the fall of pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich to months of popular unrest.

You're welcome. :angel:

(Not that the article was needed in order to deduce that 7 March was several days before 12 March.)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #706 –
They don't seem to like each other very much over there. It might be a good idea for the rest of us to stay away until they get this sorted out.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #708 –
I think that mjsmsprt40 is touching on a point. Too much allegations, lack of proof, etc. We need to wait and as the Malaysians sensibly pointed out that they are not laying the blame. So a good point let's see what does actually come out of all the screaming stuff.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #709 –
There's too much defending Putin. An SA-11 surface to air missile appears to be the cause from photographic evidence. Yes, you can tell from photographs (the pattern of the holes, etc. That type of missile is designed to explode before it hits the target.) Intelligence agencies intercepted communication among the pro-Russian separatists about downing of the plane, in separatist held territory. This is quickly adding up to an epic fuckup by the pro-Russian terrorists.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #710 –
There's too much defending Putin? If you mean the Western leadership or that in general including the media you are off your trolley. If you are meaning me then I am treading a lonely path but won't change from it.

How many times does the Russia President have to say he is not interested in invading Ukraine? How many times has he urged peace discussions? He gave Ukraine energy cheaper than anyone else and gets hit at for saying it was time overdue bills were paid. It was the West that supported the tugs who rampaged in the Kiev square who murdered and destroyed an elected government. What did the US and West do? They supported the thugs and all that guff about democratic processes, blah, blah. Indeed the West knew fine well that Kiev ignored the feelings of folk in the east that did not want involved in Europe. Did Kiev discuss ti with east Ukraine? no it did not but Putin urged it. Did the West lean on Kiev to discuss the deep division it had with the east? No it did not Only Putin urged that.

What we have been given is carefully orchestrated propaganda from Obama and meekly followed by the West which doesn't want to offend America when it should tell it to get stuffed. So instead of encouraging dialogue by Kiev "we" inthe West support the onslaught of the Ukrainian arm, destroying of homes, killing of civilians, wiping out of areas and villages. Still wait to see where Putin has urged such barbarous behaviour. Not satisfied with miscalling Russia and Putinthe media have done as wished by the political establishment and went berserk. Some of the newspaper reports are intelligence insulting and the television news is so one-sided and that includes the BBC. Time after time when the Ukrainian thing comes on there are one sided guests and in your face bias. Tis applies to both here and the US but elsewhere as well.

When Obama speaks you can see he is acting like a dummy and just repeats anything the Kiev liars tell him. The fact that US intelligence has been reported on mainstream television as stating Russia is NOT directly involved in the latest tragedy is just reported on then ignored as it does not suit the vile propaganda being fed to the media.  You freely use the media propaganda standard word of the Eastern "terrorists." Interesting that spoon fed word as it wasn't used to describe the terrorists in the square who killed un-armed policemen,and others nor those holed up in that terrible assault on a Union HQ when people jumping out of the place which had been set on fire were beaten to death whilst lying injured on the pavement outside. You unfortunately like others do not think  widely but just accept the spoon fed media imbalance. Oh, and for that supposed radio chat overheard is an interesting example. A couple of nights ago I watched a report on that and a telecommunications expert stated that the conversation was odd as it started at one time then during the recodring the time slot changed thus indicating it could have been doctored. Another report on the programme showed a picture of a Kiev missile unit in the same general area so it begs the wider question - why don't we wait instead of jumping on a bandwagon. There was also that Kiev fighter jet in the vicinity of the passenger plane which Kiev denies but again the television showed the screen plot. Instead of meekly and for easy satisfaction accepting the first thing said you and others need to keep your minds that wee bit more open instead of just accepting anything that suits.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #711 –
What the hell are you talking about?
Stick to dressing up and marching.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #712 –
If there is one thing they don't need anymore of, it's the SA-11 missile. Everybody over there seems to have one. The Ukrainians have them. The Russians have them. The Russian backed separatists have them. Little kids playing the Crimean version of "Cops and Robbers" seem to have them. The fact that they used an SA-11 to shoot down the airliner doesn't seem to establish much. It's like trying to pin a killing on a particular Chicago street gang because we know the killer used a gun.

I have to admit right now that until further facts-- or at least better unsubstantiated rumors-- come out, pinning the crime on the person who actually pulled the trigger is gonna be rough.

Special note to RJHowie: Another thing there's no shortage of over thataway is liars. The Ukraine government, the Russians, the Russian backed separatists and last but not least our own President Obama would all have major problems if their noses grew every time they lied.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #713 –
Well kind of typical of you tt92. If is something too sensible or to the point one gets a duh attitude. Kind of says much of someone who hides where he comes from the try and act as if indifferent or not part of the norm. Well done to you but as it was so simply put even that is beyond you.

Get your point mjsmsprt40 and I would like to wait until there is more practical information. We are getting too much of the allegations and no in-depth proof of what is happening. We do know that a lot of innocents are getting killed by an army that has a government claiming it's army is NOT targeting the civilians.

Now especially for tt92 who doesn't understand he comes over like a smart alec the latest news is that the Prime Minister of Ukraine that arrogant, spiteful arrogant bufoon has resigned along with his government. They are deep you-know-what in Ukraine as well as financially and by the end of next week they will not be able to pay their army as well. Anyone who doesn't think the media is going over the top needs a rest! Enjoy that tt92 :cheers:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #714 –
Thank you.
I have shown your latest posts to an eight-year-old and a sixty-five year-old and they agree that it's gibberish.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #715 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
It's like trying to pin a killing on a particular Chicago street gang because we know the killer used a gun.
Not quite. The gangstas not only used a gun, but were the only ones in vicinity. It's an open and shut case.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #716 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

There's too much defending Putin. An SA-11 surface to air missile appears to be the cause from photographic evidence.

You know more than the CIA knows or want to tell us?
You already know about the circumstances the plane was shut down? If so you could hand over your proofs to the CIA.
Or is it just the vitriolic propaganda you picked up and trying to sell as proof?
It seems to be the latter since you are using the same language - "pro-Russian terrorists".

BTW,
propaganda and perverted truth - Separatists looting the victims
https://twitter.com/Wuyelaolaoshi/status/490983822750527488/photo/1

What really happened - http://www.youtube.com/embed/xLdRBaL4-wU

Same applies for the US State Dept.
"We have evidence" bla, bla, bla.
It must be truth because we tell it. No proofs needed. We never lie.

In the meantime the Ukrainian army commits war crimes in Donetsk.
In contrast to usual US allegations, those war crimes are documented and there is proof.
So far about "terrorists".

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #718 –
Quote from: ersi on
Probably nobody expected this kind of initiative from the Netherlands.

Indeed, I don't see how they would expect to secure the area while simultaneously selling our last tanks to Saudi Arabia. As I recall the absence of tanks played a fairly significant role in Srebrenica. But at least without reluctant French generals at the helm we might have proper air support from our F-16 fleet.

Of course, without a Mladić that might be irrelevant. We'll see.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #719 –
Quote from: krake on
ou know more than the CIA knows or want to tell us?

No, I don't. This is information well known by intelligence agencies, including the CIA. Oh yeah, they have told us.

Some guy who says "I like reading about Chinese society/literature/movies" (his twitter profile), in other words a nobody, says that "Putin supported Ukraine separatist holding a child' toy monkey like a trophy" means that's what's officially reported? This is just some random schmuck with small Twitter following of 307. Still pretending he's some huge State Department official?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #720 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Indeed, I don't see how they would expect to secure the area while simultaneously selling our last tanks to Saudi Arabia. As I recall the absence of tanks played a fairly significant role in Srebrenica.

Do you mean the truth about the Srebenica genocide, the West doesn't want you to know about?

"In July 1995, 450 poorly armed soldiers of the Dutch battalion were supposed to ‘defend’ the entire well equipped 28th division of the Bosnian Muslim army, which counted some 10,000 troops! Why didn’t they defend themselves? I always wandered why is everyone protecting Muslims and no one is protecting the Serbs.

He wants to remove the irrational stigma from Dutch soldiers who were stationed in this part of eastern Bosnia under the UN auspices, who were accused of “failing to protect” Muslim fighters under the command of the war criminal Naser Oric, who were using Srebrenica safe haven status to raid the surrounding Serb-populated villages three years prior to the Bosnian Serb Army takeover."

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #721 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

This is just some random schmuck with small Twitter following of 307. Still pretending he's some huge State Department official?

Nope, that was just an example of how denigration works.
You want an example of how the State Dept. is accusing while refusing to provide evidence?
Here you go. (it's a 27 MB clip)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #722 –
Dutch state liable over 300 Srebrenica deaths
In Bosnia they were not soldiers but peacekeepers - and were found guilty of inaction. Go figure. It's probably insignificant in what capacity they served in Bosnia. The court case has been depressing to the army's reputation. To get beaten in the court case is a stigma indeed and provides some psychological explanation why there's such an affirmative action in the current airplane case.

(Not really sure what part of this story is unknown when it's all over the news. Perhaps the Kreml version of history?)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #724 –
Quote from: ersi on
Not really sure what part of this story is unknown when it's all over the news.

I think the suggestion is that it's unknown that multiple sides were committing atrocities. But in nearly two decades of media coverage I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned once or twice that Bosnians weren't always nice to Croats and Serbs.

Also, despite suggestions to the contrary on the linked page, the parliamentary investigation determined the Dutch soldiers were not at fault, but rather their commanders: the Dutch government and NATO.