Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

So the Ukrainian military says. What Kiev says should be taken with a pinch of sault. It's much easier to claim something than providing stalwart evidence.
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.

@krake - yes I too noted "Ukrainian military says" and assigned it in my mind as "provisional information". I don't believe it all, but something is happening since it's clear that Russia is assisting the Rebels and deliberately stoking the situation.

On the other hand shelling dense populated areas like the Ukrainian forces do is also against the Geneva convention.

He just trots out Kiev/White House propaganda as Gospel and anything outside of that must automatically be wrong. Do hope when he leaves school he becomes more aware and adult.

I was addressing your complaints of western media,

What of artillery fire from Russia into Ukraine?

According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine.

But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. --->

What? Short of memory? Look here.

What? Short of memory? Look here.

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
Published by the Council on Foreign Relations:

Russia’s invasion of Georgia in August 2008 should have dispelled any remaining doubts about Putin’s determination to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO.

Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West. 

Therefore it's NATO's fault? Holy shit. Just wow.

This somehow gives him license to annex Ukrainian territory and stoke the fires of civil war in mainland Ukraine? If this is really his thinking, he needs to go for the sake of Russia itself.

It's basically a very long-winded explanation for how it was really the woman's fault for wearing too short a skirt.

It's simply the idea of how to acquire the most wealth and power for your own country.

without paying much attention to ethical or moral considerations.

Exactly, except in this case we have probably different countries in mind...

After all that happened during the past two decades in Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq, Lybia, Syria (the list isn't by far complete) you have the nerve to speak about ethical or moral considerations? One might wonder which yours are.

Had he, ukraine would have been done in by now.

All mythology and anyway as Ukraine isn't in NATO that organisation should keep itself from interfering everywhere it wants

Not only of Western media but also of the US State Department and NATO officials.

Quote from: krake on 2014-08-26, 07:33:54

Not only of Western media but also of the US State Department and NATO officials.
Last but not least I was adressing your own unproven allegations which you are trying to sell as facts.

Putin has no wish to extend back to what was the old Soviet Empire. Had he, ukraine would have been done in by now. Now we get all the noise from NATO about Ukraine which is nothing to do with them. So then they come up with a make believe on Russia and suggest more troops dumped into the Baltic States.

All sorts of scenarios are being conjured up by the West because they cannot control Russia like they try to do elsewhere. As the US of recent times has been unable to have a principled and sensible leader it is either envious of President Putin or annoyed with a country they cannot dominate....Hhhh, yeah....that will be it!

And weird how you and Krake are able to argue that because Crimea belonged to Russian empire on 1783, it always should. Incidentally, the Baltic countries also belonged to Russian empire back then. Isn't it a bit of a mythology to not see the connection?

and at least white lorries are openly going in and out despite Ukraine gov't opposition?

About Howie's claims that borders should be as they were in the past, by that reasoning Scotland should be independent and Ulster should join the Republic of Ireland. But hypocritically, he'd support neither of those propositions.

Or whatever moment in history happens to be your favourite, be it Anschluss, Treaty of Versailles, colonial era, Roman era, etc.

Five Civilized tribes [/ur]would stand a good chance of being recognized independent nations. Perhaps with imported European industrial age technology they can be a par with Europe. Happiness all around   That would actually be an interesting scenario. There likely would have been a large Francophone nation where the middle part of America is now. Maybe I'll write that story after disguising the scenario with a history professor or two at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlv] UNLV

Captured Russian soldiers crossed Ukraine border ‘by accident’

Your media might parrot what Putin says,...

Those were PR by Putin. He was trying to make it look as if Ukraine was denying aid

you still don't let the man that just robbed you back into your house.

And weird how you and Krake are able to argue that because Crimea belonged to Russian empire on 1783, it always should.

Note the photo:

You are repeating this BS for the second time. Amnesia?

Tell us what you think of the 400 Ukrainian soldiers who crossed the border and surrendered inside Russia to their Army?

    Ceasefire to begin at 00:01 local time on 15 February
    Heavy weapons to be withdrawn, beginning on 16 February and completed in two weeks
    All prisoners to be released; amnesty for those involved in fighting
    Withdrawal of all foreign troops and weapons from Ukrainian territory. Disarmament of all illegal groups
    Ukraine to allow resumption of normal life in rebel areas, by lifting restrictions
    Constitutional reform to enable decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015
    Ukraine to control border with Russia if conditions met by the end of 2015