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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 229497 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #75 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: ersi on
Autonomous or not [...]

The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.

What autonomy serves for? exactly for delimiting jurisdiction.
It's complex, but taking in account the state of revolution Ukraine is passing by I'm afraid that the law of the stronger will win.

Putin is doing his move, we'll see how the others will answer...
Law of stronger breaks jurisdiction. It's not Ukraine interfering with Crimea's affairs there, is it? It's not Ukrainians deposing the administrative and legal institutions in Crimea.

It's right that I have little clue about the concept of autonomy actually, but it's absolutely sure that Russians (and perhaps also Ukrainians) have equally little. You see, many member republics in Soviet Union had their own supposedly autonomous entities while each member republic of Soviet Union was supposedly "sovereign". You can imagine what meaning those words had. Russia calls itself a federation right now and is full of autonomous member republics and other autonomous entities. In imperial times Russia never was a federation, it only had provinces with some regional laws.

So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #78 –
A power an autonomous territory never will have nowhere is the power to invite foreign forces, and generally it does not have Westphalian sovereignty (it is not a nation-state). How autonomous the territory will be, within these constraints, varies from symbolic to actual self-rule.

International law is rather nebulous, but by treaty it seems that sovereignty is overridden if the state is committing genocide on its own populace. That is not happening in Ukraine.

Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #79 –
Quote from: jax on

International law is rather nebulous, but by treaty it seems that sovereignty is overridden if the state is committing genocide on its own populace.

By "by treaty" you meant UN treaty?

Quote from: jax on

Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.
Usually war first and agreement later, if there's someone alive to sign it. Some separations are amazingly peaceful though. Soviet Union imploded so suddenly and completely that very little blood was shed. This does not happen often.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #80 –
Quote from: jax on
Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.

The reason it's called The Eighty Years' War is because Spain was a bit reticent regarding such an agreement, no matter the de facto situation. In turn, it took The Netherlands a decade or two before it officially acknowledged the independence of Belgium.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #81 –
Here's a patriotic song, reasonably well-known among those in the know. It's a folk song that was popular in the 16th century.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DeBtmY3i4[/video]

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/duys001oude02_01/duys001oude02_01_0184.php

Een Liedeken gemaect by M. Arent Dircxz. Vos
in zijn leven Pastoor inde Lier (1566)

Slaet op den trommele van dirredomdeine,
slaet op den trommele van dirredomdoes,
slaet op den trommele van dirredomdeine,
Vive le Geus is nu de loes.    

De Spaensche pocken, licht als sneeuw vlocken,
de Spaensche pocken, loos ende boos,
de Spaensche pocken, onder sPaus rocken,
de Spaensche pocken groeyen altoos.

De Spaensche Inquisitie, voor Godt malitie,
de Spaensche Inquisitie, als draecx bloet fel,
de Spaensche Inquisitie ghevoelt punitie,
de Spaensche Inquisitie ontvalt haer spel.

Vive le Geus! wilt christelick leven,
Vive le Geus! houdt fraye moet;
Vive le Geus! Godt behoed u voor sneven,
Vive le Geus! edel christen bloet.

De Paus en Papisten, Godts handt doet beven,
de Paus en Papisten, zijn teynden haer raet;
de Paus en Papisten, wreet boven schreven,
ghy Paus en Papisten soect nu oflaet.

Oflaet in tijts noch, Godts woort te krencken,
oflaet in tijts noch, u godtloos spel;
oflaet in tijts, och wilt u bedencken
oflaet in tijts, en valt Godt niet rebel.

Tswaert is getrocken, certeyn Godts wraec naect,
tswaert is ghetrocken, daer Joannes aff schrijft;
tswaert is ghetrocken, dat Apocalipsis maect naect,
tswaert is ghetrocken, ghy wert nu ontlijft.

Tonschuldich bloet, dat ghy hebt verghoten,
tonschuldich bloet roept over u wraeck;
tonschuldich bloet te storten heeft u niet verdrooten,
tonschuldich bloet, dat dronct ghy met den Draeck.

Granvelle.
U vleyschen arm, daer ghy op betroude,
u vleyschen arm beswijckt u nou;
u vleyschen arm, die u huys boude,
u vleyschen arm wijckt van u schou.

Prince.
Princen der princelijcker Geusen Prince,
princelick met u gheest haer doch regeert;
princelick drijvense u eer, aldus bemintse,
princelick wert u rijck alsdan vermeert.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #83 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Here's a patriotic song, reasonably well-known among those in the know. It's a folk song that was popular in the 16th century.

  :knight: Thanks for sharing that pulse pounding gem!  :jester:
For news updates on the Ukraine situation I've found the BBC news site good.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
Quote from: Colonel Rebel on

What I am reminded of everytime Mr. Howie bloviates about, "The EEC": http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/East_Empire_Company_Warehouse
Howie's the name, bloviating's the game.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #84 –
Quote from: ersi on
So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.

Not surprisingly... Crimea's location lefts no doubts about who's the boss there...
Naturally Putin can always evoke "preventive self defense", someone has given the example to him...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #85 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: ersi on
So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.

Not surprisingly... Crimea's location lefts no doubts about who's the boss there...
Naturally Putin can always evoke "preventive self defense", someone has given the example to him...
This is a job for Super Portugal!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #86 –
Why do we want to get involved in this countries political civil war is beyond me, hell we're involved in our own, & until we resolve ours we shouldn't even be considering thinking about theirs....this goes for Europe & Russia too....back off until you get your acts together & settle your own internal upheavals.....


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7H1P2kLrqQ[/VIDEO]

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #87 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

For news updates on the Ukraine situation I've found the BBC news site good.


For those watching BBC this might be old news:

Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape
Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked call

source

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #88 –
The Northern half of Ukraine is pro Europe (they believe that they have a place there... we''l see that...), the Southern half is pro Russia and Crimea, the southerner peninsula -  is simply Russia.

Europe has no military forces (and even they have they would never use it) and the US only appears against the Saddam Husseins of this world.
I would bet my money that Putin has already won. He studied the adversary weaknesses and acted.

"Mother Russia" is back to the game and what a comeback.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #89 –
In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing. If Europe decides to let what happens happen, there isn't a lot the US can do beyond posturing-- because we can't risk making enemies out of the rest of Europe.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #90 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing. If Europe decides to let what happens happen, there isn't a lot the US can do beyond posturing-- because we can't risk making enemies out of the rest of Europe.

The US has NO business there. Let Scotland handle it.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #91 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing.


The US already got backing from Europe to 'liberate' Iraq.

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
If Europe decides to let what happens happen, ...


You mean this?

For better understanding

Quote

1. Why did the opposition oust Yanukovich after he conceded to their demands?
2. Why is the coup-appointed govt replacing oligarchs linked to Yanukovich with... oligarchs?
3. Why did the post-coup Parliament strip Russian language of its regional status?
4. Why did Kiev attack the Constitutional court?
5. Why would the West support the coup in Ukraine?


You must be very naive if you think that the USA gives a damn about Ukrainians. However the USA can't afford a military intervention this time. Nevertheless it's a good opportunity to create tensions between Russia and Western Europe, to curbe down economic ties and last but not least to create tensions among European countries. Who do you think will profit? The Ukrainians? The EU?
How about destabilizing a little Eastern Europe and keep Europeans busy for a while?
BTW, "Fuck the EU"!

It's all about geostrategic interests. You probably already heard about Zbigniew Brzezinski and his obsession.



Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #92 –
Regarding the latter part of your post, @krake, I disagree.

I have observed our military-industrial complex for years now, and if you think we "cannot afford another intervention", you are sadly mistaken.

Mind you, let me state I am against intervention, but the MIC is chomping at the bit this very moment. "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, INTO UKRAINE!" they say. GO SCREW YOURSELF MIC! says I.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #94 –
One of our spy cameras has spotted Krake in a huff after losing a discussion:


Handling an old-style mobile keyboard:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #95 –
Quote from: krake on

You must be very naive if you think that the USA gives a damn about Ukrainians. However the USA can't afford a military intervention this time.
I hate to keep repeating myself, but which USA? The Republican USA? The Democrat USA?

If you mean the personal USA, the Jim-usa, well, I care about people being shot, dismembered or sauteed.
Quote from: Colonel Rebel on

Regarding the latter part of your post, @krake, I disagree.

I have observed our military-industrial complex for years now, and if you think we "cannot afford another intervention", you are sadly mistaken.

Mind you, let me state I am against intervention, but the MIC is chomping at the bit this very moment. "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, INTO UKRAINE!" they say. GO SCREW YOURSELF MIC! says I.

So young, so negative, so just-out-of-college. If it's good for business, it's good for Colonel Rebel.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #97 –
I have to wonder about the intelligence of Kerry because he looks like an amateur in a professional show. He comes out with complete piffle and knows little. Both he and Obama would be better sticking plaster oj their lips. Both wre completely over the top.

Here we had the US President talking about invading sovereignty and acting wrongly yet what has been the history of the United States of America since the end of WW2?? De-stabilising, invasion, ignoring sovereignty, creating war on stretched motives and still at it as we debate with drones. At least one television announcer described it as hypocrisy and one can just image the stuff dished out on tv over there and not just from Fox. Kerry stood there in front of the media like a wet sponge going on about how the former Ukrainian government had  gunned down democratic protestors in the square. Now the revealed phone dicsussion between baroness Easton and the Estonian Foreign Minister betrays something else! Over 20 riot policemen were killed and around 130 injured and wounded by gunshots. Begs the question as to the rubbish talked by Kerry as being baloney. Now it appears much of the sniping was from Hotel Ukraine at the square which also happened to be the HQ of the wonderfully peaceful protestors. The police were not gun armed and the shooters were knocking off both the police and rival opposition groups.

Kerry also talked stupidly about how bad the square;s "peaceful protestors were treated. Eh? Throwing Molotov cocktails at police and setting them on fire, using catapults and anything they could find including their eventual shooters. The former President gave in to one demand after another although you tend to get that ignored. The "government" that took over from the elected one did not represent Ukraine one damn bit. It only represented essentially th west of the country and that is made obvious when immediately they banned Russian as the second official language right away even though but is premier in the east and southeast including Ukraine. So the Kiev bandits weren't thinking a joy of all-Ukraine but just their desperate attempt to be in Europe.  I have seen excerpts of US TV news items including going on about a deadline for Ukrainian soldiers to lay down their arms by 5am or be eradicated. It was never ordered and didn't occur. Neither has there been a violent invasion. It has essentially been peaceful.

The West led by the US has been hell-bent on supporting a partisan bunch who destroyed the elected system and democracy even though an election had been offered. The West doesn't care a dman on the fact that much of Ukraine did not want the revolution by a motley crowd of rejects. Some of the Nationalist and Nazi people were released from jail and now "serve" in the restricted regime in Kiev. Maybe some clever clown like jimbro and his new sidekick fro, south of the Mason-Dixon coul explain this odd way of loking at things. That is in accepting a restricted government that DID NOT include the east or south of the nation they just did what they wanted.  The media is also unbelievable  in it's bias. This has included commented on mobs of protestors in the east and south which has no comparison to the brutal things who caused mayhem in Kiev and killed.

President Putin has been conned by the West before in places like Libya and elsewhere and isn't going to let it happen again. He, I think, would prefer to see a more federalised Ukraine to acount for the proportion of his people who live there and predominate in many places. The mobstsre in Kiev did try to get down to Crimea and take over an offical building but got chased so does not indicate a willingness by the Crimea to even be in a federal system. Keep this in mind that in Crimea the ELECTED parliament has voted unanimously that it won'ts to be returned to Russia. The Referendum will fully endorse that. Compare that to kiev's mobsters.  And lastly for now.

The West has been mouthing away in agreement with the Kiev "government" on getting rid of the Ogliarchs. Yet the new Prime Minister is a rich one and they have appointed billionaires as 2 regional Governors which contradicts what that lots rank-and-file people say in the street. If part of Ukraine ends up in the EEC it will suffer even further hardship because Europe will lay down restrictions and toughness on money so that people will be even worse off. Due to the Kiev lot and the West supporying bandits Federalism may vanish as an idea. America thinks it has some God-given right to be masters everywhere and practice hypocrisy on a vast scale with the rest of the West just sheepish=like following.  Face facts would-be funny men here as you will believe anything people like Obama, Kerry (what a disaster) and Cameron etc yak out. Obama should retire early to Chicago (sorry mjsmsprt40). Leading a nation that has interfered, caused so many wars and destroyed countries now being left ineffective. Boy that has been a long time coming and more please. Thank you President Putin!
"Quit you like men:be strong"