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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 229486 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738
But he's in total control of his image.



Not really. He gets legislation passed against gays, but posts photos seemingly designed to appeal to them  ;)

Oh yeah, GOP has been busy finding ways to blame the whole situation on Obama instead of coming up with any ideas of their own, as usual.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #52 –
Does anybody think that this Ukraine business has any wider impact, or is it just a case of Russia dealing with it's relatively local issues? Does it matter what the EU "thinks"?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #54 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Does anybody think that this Ukraine business has any wider impact, or is it just a case of Russia dealing with it's relatively local issues? Does it matter what the EU "thinks"?
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge. All elements are in place: The economic interests (the pipes in Caucasus, across Ukraine, and the Baltic Sea), the ethnic conflicts (everywhere from current Russian borders to the borders of former Soviet Union), even the recent agreements between Russia and Germany and between Russia and the Baltic countries spell out a number of the same details as they did last time.

At least Sweden is getting ready for war:
Must increase the defence budget
It's natural that Russia is coming back

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #55 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs.

I agree. There isn't much that anybody could do even if they wanted to.

We have a problem examining the innards of such events. OWS, which you mentioned, is beyond me and you. OWS was even more complicated than what appears to be going on in Ukraine and Crimea. All we're doing is guessing.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #57 –
I will remind it to you myself as soon as the internet is back up after the war.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #59 –
Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia have Russian speaking populations. What if Russia steps into those states to "protect" them from the evil West.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #60 –
There could be a trade war, Russian oil versus Mac Burgers. But I can't see the West getting involved militarily in a wide ranging war. Depends on how the Ukrainians react and that will depend on Putin's wish, or ability, to cool things.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #63 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia have Russian speaking populations. What if Russia steps into those states to "protect" them from the evil West.


Any Russians in Grand Rapids?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #65 –
What you forget is that the Crimea has been definitively kind of Russian for an awful long time. Note the stuff about the Baltic States which are in a different league but should tell you (in case the carefullt dished out media doesn't) that the mayor of the Estonian capital has came out in support of Russia.

A Colonel in the Ukranian Army made great play of the fact they had called up Reservists but omitted to say that less than 2% had responded. Units of the Ukranian Army special forces had refused to be involved in Crimea and the naval units in Crimea are in process of changing sides against Kiev. A Rear-Admiral has been filmed taking an oath of allegiance to the prime minister and goverment in Crimea. With moral in the Ukraine Armed Forces dissolving and defections they can make noises but that is all.

The West went to great lengths to support what was a coup by a selection of the population - probably around 30% if lucky. We go on about democracy yet support a coup against a democratically elected government/ The fact that it includes very extreme fascists someohow is not important. One representative of one of those parties has stated on television they are National Socialist "Just like Hitler but not as bad." That was obviously a quick thought of a reply. Who is prominent in the Defence Minisyry, etc? Fanatical nationalist extremists hence the sabre rattling.

Immediately the hoodlum sponsored government took over in Kiev they deleted Russian as the second official laguage but yesterday came out with stuff they were not picking on anyone. In the Crimea over 90% Russian is used in official and other areas so what does that tell people there? Over a hundred thousand seeking solace in Russia and hardly surprising.  It is obvious that divisions are deep yet we in the West go hell bent on supporting a coup and illegal goverment  as if it included all Ukraine. It doesn't an will not. The country needs reappraisal and if that means East, West and if need be Crimea as separates then so be it.  The West can then tramp off into the EEC and see what that brings them. They will be burdened with more debt, restrictions and austerity packages. Anyone remember Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece?When one listens to Obama, Kerry (was his last job in a carnival?) and Cameron you could groan. All that tripe from DC about invading a sovereign state baloney. What has America been doing for decades but the same damn thing if it does not get what it wants.

On the economic front the murmurings about economic restrictions. visas and all that stuff is silly. The Russian Federation has the world's fifth economy, Europe depends on the pipelines and so on. Cameron knows that but toes the DC line. The West has been very immoral on the so-called principle regarding Ukraine and it is because unlike other parts of the corporate world which it for a while has dominated and controlled the modern Russia is one it cannot get away with that on. So let Ukraine divide and then let the bit that is in decline and run by illegal government slide into Europe it will find that is a mistake.  Crimea already officially a semi-autonomous State will vote for separation and that is one H of a more democratic than the lot in Kiev we are supporting.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #66 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
What you forget...
You seem to have missed something...
Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: Josh on

A bit different.
Besides, did you know there was a guy, Khruschov, who in times of the USSR "redivided" the state - on which occasion the Crimea went to Ukraine. Which was not a big deal while there was an empire - but not later, '80s+. By many Russians the peninsula was thought to have been a RUSSIAN stronghold for long, aka "forever"...
I know full well that the borders of the "republics" within Soviet Union have been re-drawn, sometimes considerably, a number of times. Also, everybody knows that Russians have very difficult to distinguish between Russia and Soviet Union. Both are "nasha rodnaya strana". Even more, Russians have a hard time breaking apart from their great imperial past. Schizo situation for them, dangerous for themselves and for everyone close by.
::)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #67 –
Don't see the Imperial past as a problem at all as we are in the 21st century and not the same thing at all. I must remind that the USand to a lesser extent the EEC in Europe are not something written in stone. One recent headline here said that Rssia was going against those two - well excuse me but ther planet is not owned by them. If you want to see a nation that is doing an Imperial modern stance look across the Atlantic. Invassons, destabilsing, back handers via the CIA and what have you. Your country has to go an awful long way to catch up with that lot. Do you have hundreds of bases across the globe? no you don't.

What was done in Kiev was illegal but what has been done is legal and more normal. There the Prime Minister WAS elected. Kiev by virtue of the way the government was taken over are the wrong ones but the West totally ignores principles when it suits them. Let it take the West of Ukraine and see what happens when it goes into the EEC and all the extra money worries the cuts and having to live frugally because of economics. The same "oppoistion" was vehement that the oligarchs had to be got rid of and what do we find? Appointments to government positions, governors, etc are billionaires and millionaires. That arrogant woman was released from jail as a hero is another wealthy one and has a whole series of wealthy homes. Principles be damned. Then more baloney from outside on the Crimea where the parliament has made decisions having been elected as their prime Minister. Somehow that is nothing but a crowd of bandits who destroy the same process in Kiev are heroes?

The news reporting is appalling. One Sky reporter from Ukraine rabbited on about the Russians saying people would be safe and he commented "believe that if you can." Another load of cobblers was the Russian Navy giving the Ukrainian navy until 5am to surrender or they were for it. We officially recognise an illegal takeover of a voted in government and that is oaky. Then the television and newspapers join the lies. Where is the neutral reporting?

The Ukraine military is in a state of flux and apart from the fact they would have a hard job against Russian speical forces they are dubious. A whole section of the air force has already changed sides so to have navy people and it wasn't Russia that caused this it was the motley crowd of bandits and Nazis who took Kiev over. So that mob was supported by the arrogant West led by Obama who thinks the world's fiefdom is their right. Wrong side of history (according to Obama). Now if it wasn't so serious you could almost laugh at yet another hypocrisy. Ukraine has lost Crimea and the Referendum result in no doubt and maybe part of the East will in time go and all because of doubtful people in Kiev. It is their fault and not Russia's

If Russia had as many military bases across the Earth a history over the last while of wars and wars, intrigue, de-stabilising and destroying governments then one could yak with some basis. As I pointed out the country is so deeply divided and you can blame the Kiev lot for making it a heck of a lot worse whilst thinking they will be saved by US and other handouts. They don't know what is ahead of them in reality. Two Ukraines will be way forward.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #69 –
Right, RJ. Very convincing argument there you are making that US is worse. Unfortunately I live next door to Russia, not US, so that's what I am dealing with. Sad story that empires are written in stone but everything between them is not.

Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: ersi on
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge.

History never repeats dear Ersi :)
Remember the previous attack Russia made - Ossetia? Also around Olympics, Beijing 2008. In fact both the war and the olympic games opened at the same time. This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #70 –
Quote from: ersi on

Remember the previous attack Russia made - Ossetia? Also around Olympics, Beijing 2008. In fact both the war and the olympic games opened at the same time. This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.


Even the West had to drop these claims. Too many evidences.

Did Saakashvili Lie?



Wasn't Saakashvili the Rose Revolution man backed by the USA and promised even NATO membership?

This is the way Washington's darling dealt with demonstrations in his country


source

But you're right Ersi there are enough elements in place which remind us of 2008.



Quote
Mikheil Saakashvili, and various members of his government, have long been accused of crimes which no person, and no politician, would be allowed to commit under the laws of any EU member country.

These include extrajudicial murder, embezzlement, misuse of administrative resources, misuse of public funds, false imprisonment of opponents, seizure of private property, electoral fraud, torture, political terrorism and war crimes. These allegations have long been supported by evidence which meets the standard required in every EU member country, much of which is publicly available.

source

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #71 –
Krake, there are two distinct things. One thing is a govt being a bastard within its own borders. The other thing is a govt playing the police outside its borders. I know full well how economically corrupt politically immoral criminally insane my own current govt is. And I know full well that the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian clique is suspicious from any angle you look at it. In either case, outsiders should not interfere.

The topic here is #2. Outsiders are interfering. Ukraine is not being allowed to let its own blood and calm down in the manner and time of its own choice. From the point of view of the people of Ukraine, the best that could happen is to keep the matter internal. It should not be anyone else's business, except Cuban doctors sewing up pieces of flesh and Swedish philanthropists sending warm blankets.

What I mean is that Ukrainian riots, and the coup where the army didn't participate, should not be any outsider's military business. There is absolutely no question who stepped over the line here.

All govts are bastards, but being a bastard within their own borders is kinda legitimate. Being a bastard outside its borders is definitely illegitimate, no matter which govt does it, US, Russia, whoever.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #72 –
Quote from: ersi on
This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.

No no, my comment was a light approach about the big historical theories, not intended as specific for this situation.

You are right that no outside intervention is justifiable but as I hear it happens that Crimea is an autonomous province of Ukraine. The question is if such autonomy grants its habitants the right to ask for a Russian intervention.

As I know, there's an agreement until 2045 for Russian army permanence and Crimea has deep and close cultural attachments wit Russia. Probably also economic.
So, what do people from Crimea wants? That's the first part of the equation I need to know.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #73 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

As I know, there's an agreement until 2045 for Russian army permanence and Crimea has deep and close cultural attachments wit Russia. Probably also economic.
So, what do people from Crimea wants? That's the first part of the equation I need to know.
The agreement concerns Sevastopol, Russian military base in Crimea. The agreement does not concern the status of Crimea. Autonomous or not, the international border runs so that Crimea is Ukraine, not Russia.

What do the people want? As it says in the news, the parliament and govt HQ of Crimea have been overrun. There's nobody now who could with any air of legitimacy claim to be representing the people there.

The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #74 –
Quote from: ersi on
Autonomous or not [...]

The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.

What autonomy serves for? exactly for delimiting jurisdiction.
It's complex, but taking in account the state of revolution Ukraine is passing by I'm afraid that the law of the stronger will win.

Putin is doing his move, we'll see how the others will answer...

A matter of attitude.