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Topic: Turkey hypocrisy (Read 13099 times)

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #25
there's no European country that can beat Turkey these days in terms of military power or geo strategic importance
France and GB gave up their nuclear weapons? The Turks can only frustrate plans… They haven't even been able -in a great many decades- to deal with the Kurds! And, now that they seem hell-bent on installing Sharia, who won't recognize what a fine staging place that glassy plain would make! :)

But I listen to saner and more experienced voices: Jerry Pournelle says
Quote
Russia is angry with Turkey. There is a dispute over how long the Russian fighter-bomber was over Turkish territory – which is a jutting spur less than ten miles wide. The Turks insist they sent warning after warning that the Russians were approaching their territory, but did not fire until the Russian plane was over Turkey. The Russians claim that it never was over Turkey at all; but even by the Turkish account any rational flight plan would put the Russians over Turkey no more than a minute at longest, and actually the time over Turkey would have been no more than a few seconds. They had to be ready to fire. They claim they were defending their air space; from what is not clear.
(source)
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This is an event that might lead to the next world war… :(

Turkey is an insignificant country, except as a staging point… (They can't -and don't need to be- even a bottle-neck! As Tommy Franks showed.)

I'd sooner trust Estonia… (Despite ersi's retrograde opinions. And, if it came to it, prefer Estonia have it's day in the sun: They have greatness in their future… He's a Luddite, i'n't he? :) What place -in a modern world- is there for such?)

BTW: How would you pronounce "Incirlik"…? :) I'd suggest -if Turkey decides to jump that fence- slag 'em … (Not very academically sourced, unless you've read history.)
But not from our current administration, which seems determined to see the end of America. But the next administration, in opposition and retaliation, will likely revert to ancient ways of war: (In short, though it shocks most moderns, win.) I've kept that in parenthesis because most of our "allies" no longer know what that means… :)
We will win. (And the rabble will complain, we shouldn't have!)
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RJ will likely get to keep his National Health… :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #26

Was not for Turkey and our civilization would had been already invaded by the Ottomans.
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Actual Turkey is not bad. Not bad at all.
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I must recognize Turkey's role defensing Europe.
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You are playing with the fire, there's no European country that can beat Turkey these days in terms of military power

That must be kind of weird Portuguese humor. :D

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #27

Balkan Slavs are now permanently estranged from Russia.

Would you mind naming those Balkan Slavs?


This is a turkey fight.

A Turkey fight you say? :)
Erdogan is merely hiding under the skirt of NATO.
How long would you think that a war with Russia would last?


Now, Turkey has given a perfect pretext to Putin. Putin has two options:

1. Employ the pretext ruthlessly for geopolitical purposes.
2. Continue on the well-trodden incoherent path of the Czars.

My bets are on the second. It will only get more irrational and messier from here.

As disappointing as it may be for you, your second bet is right.
Russia won't start WWIII because of a downed plane over Syria by the Turks.
BTW, you are omitting the geopolitical purposes of the Sultan from Ankara... ;)


In my opinion, snatching of Crimea was also irrational.

Knowing your state of mind towards Russians, for sure it was irrational. :)
For the wast majority of Crimeans it was a blessing.

they earned the disdain of the world

The disdain of the world, you say?
The world is more than the USA and its allies...
As for the economic sanctions unleashed under US pressures, they are considered even by most Europeans as a damage that will weaken Europe and will only consolidate the Sino-Russian alliance.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #28
krake, you said a mouthful! But the Portuguese will not understand: He's pinned to his pinafore… And he thinks he's macho! :)

Putin needs Russians! And he has a great many nearby…

As our first president counseled : We should steer clear of Europe's territorial squabbles!

The U.S. –if anyone asks me– should sit this one out.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #29


Balkan Slavs are now permanently estranged from Russia.

Would you mind naming those Balkan Slavs?

Bulgarians, Croats, Slovenians. Everybody except Serbs.




In my opinion, snatching of Crimea was also irrational.

Knowing your state of mind towards Russians, for sure it was irrational. :)
For the wast majority of Crimeans it was a blessing.

If by blessing you mean that it satisfied their irrational Putinesque sentiments for the short term, that's true. But that's not what I would call a blessing. There's officially declared crisis right now. Would you say that Eastern Ukrainian war zone is also blessed by, say, Russian humanitarian aid trucks?

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #30

If by blessing you mean that it satisfied their irrational Putinesque sentiments for the short term, that's true. But that's not what I would call a blessing.

I'm afraid that's you who is driven by (anti-) "Putinesque" sentiments... :)
Crimeans just opted for a better life. Simply as that.
Short term, you say? What do you mean by it? The next 50 years?
As it looks for now Kiew won't be able to offer to its residents a decent living anytime soon. It was very hard during Yanukovych but now it's much worse...


Would you say that Eastern Ukrainian war zone is also blessed by, say, Russian humanitarian aid trucks?

At any rate better than Kiew's bombs and artilleries.


Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #32
I think Belfrager was thinking of Gallipoli. In that battle in WW1, the Turks did a number on the British/Australian/NewZealand expeditionary forces.

The attack on Gallipoli was poorly managed from the start, and Churchill seemed determined to make every possible mistake that could be made planning the thing. His generals and admirals (this was part army and part navy) helped enormously in the mistake-making department.

The outcome might have been different if the Brits hadn't sent in antiquated equipment, and had taken their foe a little more seriously and planned accordingly.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #33

I'm afraid that's you who is driven by (anti-) "Putinesque" sentiments... :)
Crimeans just opted for a better life. Simply as that.
Short term, you say? What do you mean by it? The next 50 years?
As it looks for now Kiew won't be able to offer to its residents a decent living anytime soon. It was very hard during Yanukovych but now it's much worse...

It's worse for everybody. By short term I mean, for example, from the annexation to now. Back then those who favoured the rigged voting were in Putinesque euphoria, now they are in a drawn-out economic and political crisis. Maybe the memory of the euphoria helps them survive it better, but that's not the solution for everybody, and not even really a solution.



Would you say that Eastern Ukrainian war zone is also blessed by, say, Russian humanitarian aid trucks?

At any rate better than Kiew's bombs and artilleries.

Whereas Russian bombs and artilleries are just fine? Now, it's true that the western powers have caused thorough tensions in Ukraine that prompted this war, so they are not innocent, but this doesn't mean that Russia didn't invade militarily. If it didn't, there would be no war. There would be only frustration because silly Merkel (among others) gave unfounded hopes to Ukraine and then let them down.




Erdogan is merely hiding under the skirt of NATO.
How long would you think that a war with Russia would last?

[snip]

BTW, you are omitting the geopolitical purposes of the Sultan from Ankara... ;)

In the 19th century, Sultan's dominion was steadily declining. All European powers had collectively concluded that Ottoman Empire is doomed, must eventually disappear, and they were all in a race to fill the power vacuum.

I have some respect for the Ottomans. For example, I think they have been the best custodians of the Palestine throughout known history. When Ottomans held Jerusalem, Jews, Muslims, and Christians got along. They did not get along under British rule and are not getting along now under Israeli rule. Perhaps Persian rule over the Palestine, as recorded in the Bible, was as good as Ottoman rule, but every other rule has been worse.

I think it's been generally a good thing that Atatürk managed to establish a real Turkey, instead of becoming a European puppet or colony. At the same time, this has meant trials and tribulations for the Kurds, who thrive better under Iranian rule.


As for the economic sanctions unleashed under US pressures, they are considered even by most Europeans as a damage that will weaken Europe and will only consolidate the Sino-Russian alliance.

The current sanctions are inevitable because Russia's behaviour was openly demanding it. Currently we have no other war in Europe than the one over Ukraine.

The sharp reversal of relationships with Russia is damaging to Europeans themselves because it demonstrates Europe's frivolous stupidity. The earlier policies of appeasement with Russia (namely, Schröder giving the Baltic Sea over to Russia for the gas pipes, Merkel pushing for visa-freedom, ignoring Baltic border disputes in the process, the French signing the agreement to build warships for Russia's Black Sea fleet, etc.) were absolutely horrendous misjudgements of Russia's character. Those who knew Russia better, namely the people of the Baltic countries who warned Europe for all these policies, were not heard, thus demonstrating inequality of Europe - there are those in EU who call the shots despite being blatantly wrong and those who are overstepped even when they are perfectly right. That's a series of dead serious mistakes on Europe's part this century.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #34
That must be kind of weird Portuguese humor.  :D

Yes it is while you pay Turkey three bilion euros to keep refugees away from you... besides the promiss of letting them being part of European Union.
Don't be such an idiot. Be shamed.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #35
And this thread only goes on to prove that a direct list of very obvious Turkish nonsense cannot be answered by the usual body swerving here!  :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #36
BTW, you are omitting the geopolitical purposes of the Sultan from Ankara...
Does a dog fear its fleas…? :) The leader of Turkey has only as much influence as he is allowed, and he's a fool if he doesn't know it.
(Of course, I think anyone a fool who'd even consider Sharia… So, you're mileage may vary.)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #37
Proper usage of "your" and "you're" is expected from literate posters.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #38

Yes it is while you pay Turkey three bilion euros to keep refugees away from you...

Germany can't absorb refugees from all over the world.
It's not only keeping them away from us but from Europe. At least some part of Europe since apparently refugees don't want to live - for instance in Portugal...


besides the promiss of letting them being part of European Union.

They are offered the chance to become part of the EU. That's not the same as an unconditional promise.
It may never happen if they won't meet the demands...


Don't be such an idiot.

How about keeping it civilized?

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #39


besides the promiss of letting them being part of European Union.

They are offered the chance to become part of the EU. That's not the same as an unconditional promise.
It may never happen if they won't meet the demands...

In a rational world, Turkey would never be part of the EU. To even think of giving such a promise to Turkey makes a mockery of the demands and requirements that have to be met to become a member.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #40
@ ersi
They who can read are clearly at an advantage. ;)
See my post above.
Turkey has actually no chance to become an EU-member and Erdogan knows it.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #41
Perhaps Persian rule over the Palestine, as recorded in the Bible, was as good as Ottoman rule, but every other rule has been worse.

You mean the rule during which the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were deported to Babylon? As recorded in the Ketuvim around e.g. Lamentations 4:20? Yeah, that was some great stuff. :right:

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #42

Perhaps Persian rule over the Palestine, as recorded in the Bible, was as good as Ottoman rule, but every other rule has been worse.

You mean the rule during which the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were deported to Babylon? As recorded in the Ketuvim around e.g. Lamentations 4:20? Yeah, that was some great stuff. :right:

That was Babylonians. By Persians I mean emperors like Cyrus (Book of Ezra) and Ahasuerus (Book of Esther).

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #43

Turkey has actually no chance to become an EU-member and Erdogan knows it.

...which makes the promise bogus and the EU looks just as bad.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #44
They are offered the chance to become part of the EU. That's not the same as an unconditional promise.
It may never happen if they won't meet the demands...

For the second time...
How about keeping it civilized?

We usually are, more or less. Just one of those less times, nothing personal. :)
At least some part of Europe since apparently refugees don't want to live - for instance in Portugal...

The language is very difficult...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #45
The language is very difficult...
They'd only have to learn one phrase: "Check, please!" To be used with the natives only at restaurants and welfare offices…
I'm sure Arabic is in frequent use in the various black market venues.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #46
Turkey is a mess of a country. Constant doubts on it's so-called democracy  which exists if you agree with the clown who is Presient. Thise journalists who could spend 45 years in a jail is a typical thing. I certainly do not want that country in the EU as that lot are bad and corrupt as hell. Turkey has got away with breaking greek air space repeatedly as standard and surprise, surprise that wonderful leader of democracy, Obama has supported Turkey even though that country does what it does to Greece as standard p-ractice? The plane should not have been shot down for 17 seconds and completely makes my point about their plane shot down by Syrian confirmed. Having been right behind the Turkey loose lot the US President has the sheer gall to tell his dangerous pal Turkey and Russia to deter their argument?! From a country that does wht it damn well likes on the world stage so what right does America have? Turkey is as principled as nutjob land when it comes to principles.

When will we hear from the White House about the ridiculous air space violations on Greece at over 2,000?? If I was Putin, I would also cut turkey's oil supply. Oh wait there is an alternative over the Border in Syria.......
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #47
…it seems, RJ, that your knowledge of geography is inadequate…

Turkey is not a mess of a country. It is just one -unlike yours- which hasn't relinquished any and every claim to power… And one that -also like yours- has no effect upon world events.

Drink your ImBru, Howie… And stay away from complicated things! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)


Re: Turkey hypocrisy

Reply #49
I watched the newspaper reps at the regular White House news room asking questions. The man at the lectern almost danced around accusations against Turkey from the press people. When one woman reporter held up satellite picture of scores of oil lorries and a chain crossing the border into Turkey from ISIS the White House rep did a dance as usual and scoffed at the picture.  The number of lorries going over into Turkey runs into hundreds.

That country is in a mess and does support that lot over the Syria border known as Turkmen and supports them. Turkey also bombs the Kurds in Syria doing a great job of fighting the ISIS maniacs.  That Turkey shoots down a Russian plane near where that Turkmen support is given and oil slipping in is coincidence?? The White House Rep had to be forced into saying there would no doubt be a few tankers sneaking in well oakdale it is over a thousand. Turkey is corrupt as hell but your President supports Turkey as an ally and member of NATO so that makes the crime okay then?

Now that Russia is submitting an application to the UN will be very interesting on the actual oil truth and Turkey's two-faced stance. Shooting a plane down when it is from a country fighting ISIS is a farce. You neatly ignored my info on that Turkish plane shot down years ago by a Syrian plane and Turkey moaned it was only a short time over the border! Likewise you dance at the large number of air space violations by Turkey amounting to 3-figures. When it comes to unintentional comedians you should take a stand and maybe even pass Trump.
"Quit you like men:be strong"