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Poll

Buddhism is...

...a philosophy
[ 1 ] (16.7%)
...a religion
[ 2 ] (33.3%)
...a science
[ 0 ] (0%)
...a problem
[ 0 ] (0%)
...tolerable as long as I get my beer
[ 3 ] (50%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Topic: The Problem with Buddhism (Read 31119 times)

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #75 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

...that is absurd, i.e. nutsy coocoo. 

That's a nutsy definition of "absurd" :) I appreciate tho that you at least gave it a try.

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

All living things have a natural mechanism embedded in their genes that makes them want to survive in order to perpetuate the species, even plants because they will grow toward the sunlight in an effort to survive if put in a dark place.  Should we interpret that instinct as proof of eternal life for plants?  No, that is absurd, i.e. nutsy coocoo. Then why is nature's survival instinct any different for humans?  It's not--if you know evolution. 

The point that I agree with you here is the suggestion that the survival instinct of plants is no different from human survival instinct. Indeed, all living things and beings demonstrate the same survival instinct. But since you assume that I think humans are somehow special in this aspect, pretty much everything else you say misses the mark.

Also, it's wrong to assume that the survival instinct in all living beings doesn't lead to any conclusion about eternal life. From the fact that you see everyone's life span come to an end, you conclude "All men are mortal," right? If this inductive reasoning is sound, then the deductive conclusion that the survival instinct must have its essential basis in the eternal principle of life is all the more sound. The eternal principle of life deduced from the omnipresent instances of the survival instinct is as sound as the principle of temperature deduced from the instances of hot and cold, or the principle of time deduced from the experience of the past and the present, or the concept of space deduced from the observation of three-dimensional objects.

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Nevertheless, it simply does not logically follow to say that the instinct to survive, found in all living things, is any kind of evidence or proof that eternal life awaits only the human species.

Actually, as I just showed, the principle of life logically follows. The principle of life is as sound, convincing, omnipresent, and eternal as the principles of temperature, time, and space that are arrived at by the same reasoning and easily accepted in physics. If you go against the principle of life, you go against time, temperature, and space as well.

Now, it might be interesting for you to know that this principle of life - along with all the rest of deductive conclusions - is said to be "void" in Buddhism. All deductive reasoning is said to reveal the Void. When you manage to build a case for this, i.e. that there's nothing substantial about all these principles I mentioned, that there's no such thing as "substantial" or "essential" at all, further discussion will continue to attract my interest.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #76 –
Quote from: ersi on
Indeed, all living things and beings demonstrate the same survival instinct.

Maybe it's life, per itself, that has such behavior. When we feel it inside us or recognize it at other living beings, we call it survival instinct.
I'm not sure it belongs to us, it's much more (and now a word most here don't appreciate) the miracle of life, beyond rational comprehension.

Materialists should call it a plague...

A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #77 –
Quote from: ersi on
That's a nutsy definition of "absurd"  :)  I appreciate tho that you at least gave it a try.


I was being F-A-C-E-T-I-O-U-S.  Namely because I don't jump through Ersi hoops. 

Quote from: ersi on
Also, it's wrong to assume that the survival instinct in all living beings doesn't lead to any conclusion about eternal life.


Don't you see that you make this same tired statement about everything you examine.  Since the definition of survival instinct has one word in common with that of eternal life, namely 'living' (a little longer or forever), you conclude that deathlessness--of some unknown type, in an indescribable place--absolutely awaits us.  It's utterly ridiculous (actually, it's much worse than that).


Quote from: ersi on
From the fact that you see everyone's life span come to an end, you conclude "All men are mortal," right? If this inductive reasoning is sound, then the deductive conclusion that the survival instinct must have its essential basis in the eternal principle of life is all the more sound.


The only thing I can deduce from the conclusion that "all men are mortal", is that, being a man, I am going to die.  The leap you take from mortality to the instinct of survival to immortality is not logical, you are just saying words and not making sense.  One can go from mortality to the instinct to survive to obtaining a longer life span on earth logically enough, but the wild leap to immortality in some  supernatural world does not follow and cannot be logically assumed. 

Can you make a similar leap from the female instinct to protect their young, to an eternity of doing just that?  Why not, you went from wanting to live to living forever easy enough?  How about the instinct to eat, to eating forever or the instinct to procreate, to f*****g forever?  (Well...I might go for that one.)  :knight:  :cheers:
 
James J

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #78 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

I don't jump through Ersi hoops. 

I set no other hoops than keeping us on topic and making you to live up to your own promises. Your latest promise was to devise a supernatural philosophy in ten minutes and demonstrate its impregnability against attacks.

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

...the wild leap to immortality in some  supernatural world does not follow and cannot be logically assumed. 

I demonstrated it logically. Namely, the reasoning process is the same as when deducing the existence of temperature, time, and space. You are rejecting a sound reasoning process, hence defining yourself as irrational.

At this stage you are not just atheist and anti-supernatural. You are anti-temperature, anti-time and anti-space.

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Can you make a similar leap from the female instinct to protect their young, to an eternity of doing just that? 

Sure. The conclusion from this is that offspring always needs motherly care as per its dispositions. This is so any time, anywhere. No exceptions.

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

How about the instinct to eat, to eating forever or the instinct to procreate, to f*****g forever? 

There's universal nourishment and universal creativity. All these conclusions imply universal life, eternal life.

But notice how in the physical world the instincts are moderated. This means everything happens under certain rules and conditions. There are certain requirements or standards that one must meet, then the effect follows. This is always so.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #79 –
Quote from: ersi on
You are rejecting a sound reasoning process, hence defining yourself as irrational.


Not at all my friend, what I am rejecting is another wild flight of fancy of which you can convince yourself time and time again.  Is it not more logical to conclude that the survival instinct is an not indication of eternal life, but instead of an impending and, quite final, death to be avoided for as long as possible?  Of course it is and besides, I think, for the most part, your reasoning is a spoof, if not for me, then for yourself.

Christian theology borrows from philosophy all the time and I just finished a very long modern text book chapter on this subject--nothing of what we are discussing is mentioned or even hinted at.  Now you might say, 'that's because the bible does not speak directly to it' which is true, but in teaching theology, ideas from philosophy are discussed all the time, especially if they support a Christian concept and even though they can never be made official church doctrine.  :knight:  :cheers:

James J

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #80 –
Looks like the Wzen.org podcast has gone down for good. There used to be weekly updates.
The podcast provided recordings from speeches at the Zen Mountain Monastery, a bastion of authentic spirituality and mysticism established by John Daido Loori Roshi in New York. I don't recommend stuff lightly :)

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #81 –
Yellow people, Buddhists or not, thinks that white people smells as butter.
I agree with them, many people here must smell as butter, think as butter and act as butter.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #82 –
Oh how informative. What doe they say other races smell of.....?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #83 –
Chocolate, cinnamon and coriander.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #84 –
Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme?

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #86 –
They found a Buddha with a monk inside. (for two hundred years or something like that)
Buddhist "specialists" says the monk is alive but in deep meditation...

:lol: I love Buddhism, it has a nice sense of humor.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #87 –
Can understand that Belfrager as lots of statues are the same in your corner and theirs!  :)
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #88 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

Can understand that Belfrager as lots of statues are the same in your corner and theirs!  :)

Do I need to remember you how your lot destroyed our sacred statues and churches, Protestant "taliban"?
Do I need to remember you that there's no sacred art stolen from Catholic churches that is not at criminal Protestants stolen art collectors?

We don't put monks inside statues, but if you're interested in a piece of the original cross or a bone from some saint, that can be arranged my friend. For the right price of course, those genuine pieces are rare. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
I love Buddhism, it has a nice sense of humor.

Hotei remains an admired friend. (My first wife gave me a figurine of Hotei as a birthday present the first year after we were married.) I appreciate his view of life, as I appreciated hers.
I expect she knew somethings I didn't.

Laugh, as Hotei admonishes. It'll do you good.

[I read a story in a recent issue (within a year or two) of the magazine Fantasy & Science Fiction involving the resurrection of Neanderthals… Does anyone else know it?}
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #90 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
[I read a story in a recent issue (within a year or two) of the magazine Fantasy & Science Fiction involving the resurrection of Neanderthals… Does anyone else know it?}

No, but I do remember an older sci-fi story involving a Neanderthal child being taken to the "present" through a time machine. :P

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #91 –
Well now Belfrager some "saints had so many relics they could have been giants! At the reformation (especially here) we took out all the worshipping statues and got rid of 'em and made the places nice and simple with no distractions. No great works of art at all so no robbery. One wee Scots 'wummin ' picked up a stool and threw it at the clergy man and passed what became historical words "Wha daur say Mass in ma lug." For the lesser endowed "who dares to see mass in my ear."

Scotland had a proper Reformation not like the act of convenience in the separate Kingdom of england under Hnery 8th the great womaniser. Here it was from the bottom up. The Chursch was so corrupt and we put paid to the places with a bastard figure in 4 figures whose parents were nuns and priests. However it was not some mass killing exercise more of a cleaning out of the garden. Very few of the old church existed after the Scots success and they didn't go up until the lesser educated Irish flocked here in the 19th century. Ever so considerate we Scots Prots. A very complete Reformation ours. Poty you missed out! :)
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #92 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
At the reformation (especially here) we took out all the worshipping statues and got rid of 'em and made the places nice and simple with no distractions.

As I said, like the Talibans, IS and the sort are doing. You just arrived first than them but it was expectable, they are six hundred years later, the Prophet was born just at six hundred something, isn't it?

No difference from the fundamentalist Protestants and the fundamentalist Muslims. At least the later uses to explode themselves while the former seems to lack the courage.

I suppose there must be some fundamentalist Buddhists also, but they get so so detached that we can barely notice them...
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #93 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
As I said, like the Talibans, IS and the sort are doing. You just arrived first than them but it was expectable, they are six hundred years later, the Prophet was born just at six hundred something, isn't it?

Pagan temples, sacred groves, etc. :whistle:

Re: The Problem with Buddhism

Reply #94 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
Pagan temples, sacred groves, etc.  :whistle:

Pagan temples were transformed into Christian sanctuaries, not by destruction but by the will of the people that turned Christian.
Others simply fall into forgetfulness and lost their initial religious meaning.
A matter of attitude.