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Topic: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of  (Read 4764 times)

A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

A few nights ago i picked up the tail end of a news item on tv on Pearl Harbour. If i got it right it is now planned to re-settle the mass graves of some 600 sailors who were killed in the raid. Every time I see something on Pearl whether real or fiction. I think it is not just a disgusting incident but so sad due to the unexpected situation and great carnage Sailors being drowned inside sinking or sunk warships as well as those killed in the open air. The minds of those that planned the Pearl Harbour disaster is something beyond reason and is a shocking reminder of those to whom principles mean nothing. It has always been another of those war incidents that were abominable. It will be a moving and very sad exhumation.

The re-interring will be a particularily moving and sad reminder of a terrible and unforgivable affray.  :(
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #1 –
Sympathy?  For despicable us?  If we had been ruined as a nation at that time, think how much better the world would be today.  I'm not going to use the 'H' word here, but someone else may.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #2 –
Kinf of says something about yourself more than me.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #3 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
It has always been another of those war incidents that were abominable.

It's war, so by definition it's abominable.

At Pearl Harbor 2,403 Americans died. Casualties in the Pacific War numbered around 36 million, total deaths in WWII, about 52,000,000, about 20,000,000 of them Russians.

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #4 –
Kind of says it all.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #5 –
It doesn't say the half of it, RJ, let alone tell it all. And, of course, you know it. But Jaybro and James are both right: Why decry an act of war as heinous? "All's fair…" you know.
Despite Franklin Delano's florid phrase, the Japanese attach on Pearl was to be expected. (Not that it was allowed… I don't care for conspiracy theorizing.) Our -those of the U.S.- policies had pushed the Empire into a corner, from which they had to get free.
It was just bad luck, and bad logistics (to include bad economics and bad historical prescience…) that they didn't succeed. (Few of them thought they would… But: What choice had they?)

Shall I put it in words even you can understand? :) Very well, then:
The Japanese gambled on a war in Europe that would last long enough for them to retrench (or better…) if the U.S. was denied the Pacific.
They lost that gamble! (A nod to Jaybro, for recognizing the Soviet menace threatening to go through Manchuria…had it not been for the Eastern Front.)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #6 –
You have long played out the extreme regular guff about explaining things that i may understand. That coming from an ex-colonists is a truly hoot of great proportions. Yes America should have known that Pearl was a potential target but it still came as complete surprise as no war was in place - yet. For anti-war minds just to negate the matter to suit their rather limited grey cell span assessing does not deter me from standing by what I said. It was a really horrible, despicable act by a lot who were so full of them selves thinking they could do what they damn well like.

It is so easy in these times for liberal minds (groan) to assess it by today but I will not be deterred from stating that it was tenuous and horrible act of butchery and the way many of those sailors died was nerve ending slowly and terribly. The re-interring of those people is a reminder of savagery.  :(
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #7 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
it was tenuous and horrible act of butchery and the way many of those sailors died was nerve ending slowly and terribly. The re-interring of those people is a reminder of savagery.   :(
You've mis-used the word "tenuous"… But you've also misunderstood both the point and the practice of war: Savagery is its essential quality.
It is not (excuse me, Belfrager…) dueling between countries! There is precious little room for honor in the prosecution of war.

Much of what the Japanese did before and during WW II was reprehensible, and worse, I'd agree. But the bombing of Pearl Harbor was simply and purely an act of war.
It was not an atrocity. It was a calculated military attack to gain advantage…

Boy Scouts may not appreciate it, Howie, but -if you'd read more, and certainly more of history- you'd know that it was a desperate act, and futile!

But American policy had left them no choice.

They could only hope that the Germans and Italians (and others) could win in Europe, which was doubtful. Else, that they would sue for peace, and they, the Japanese, would be included in the negotiations… But surely they knew Russia would never acquiesce to any statis quo.
No. They had no choice but to gamble… And they lost.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #9 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on
They came out of reconstruction pretty well.
If you discount the extinguishing of their imperial designs and the elimination of their warrior ethos… :)
I suppose it can all be blamed on Perry…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #10 –
You do really get carried away with yourself Oakdale. Sober up and get out in the fresh air. I KNOW history and because you are one of the few ex-colonists who may have looked at it doesn't make you an expert. You have wandered away into a world of your own  and detracted from that tragedy.I shouldn't have bothered being concerned about the way all those sailors died.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #12 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
I shouldn't have bothered being concerned about the way all those sailors died.
Your concern was touching! An Oprah moment, if there ever was one.
Certainly, many a death in war is horrific. The mere fact of an anniversary is enough to set some people off on crying jags — I know. But your claim, that you know history, is mostly baseless.
And your presumption that you understand anything about military strategy is ludicrous.

You can't really study history by watching television, RJ.
Quote from: tt92 on
Or on Puccini.
The timing's off. tt92. But your comments are more coherent than those of some others… :) Do you actually like Madame Butterfly?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #13 –
I say, Oak old chap: Rj doesn't just "know" history, he "KNOWS" history.

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #15 –
Kind of obvious Oakdale that you still read comics. You would have loved the Blackhawk and Sergeant Rock comics of yesteryear for your history lesson. As for tt92 now his actual history would be fascinating....hhhhm.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #16 –
Another thing to consider, regarding military strategy: "The difference in the quality and Character of the British and French young leadership classes before and after WWI is frequently described as a cause for both lackluster performance during WW2 and post-war Imperial Collapse.
Winnowing out the Bravest and Best by the Million is just not Sound National Policy." (Sorry: I don't know how to get a link to individual comments, there… This one was made by Oldeguy, after the article Camp of the Stupids by John Derbyshire at Taki.mag… And, yes, the Discus service sucks!)
The reason I've continued this pointless exchange with RJ is that others here may be interested (in history and military strategy…) enough to open and pursue intelligent conversation about such topics…

I still maintain that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a legitimate -if audacious!- military enterprise. If you don't know why the Empire had to hobble the Americans (us) in the Pacific sphere -at least, for a while, you don't know enough to have an opinion.

Yes, Howie, sailors (and others…) died horribly! And -perhaps- needlessly: What was the reason that most of our Pacific fleet was harbored at Pearl, and not protected sufficiently? (But I'd not pursue conspiracy theories… :) ) But your reason for faulting the Japanese for this "atrocity" is just plain silly!

To put my point a little more plainly: So some guys drowned… You sound like the Irishman who took to the sea knowing he was safe there — since he knew he was fated to be hanged. (He'd -like you- not read books: Billy Budd would have disabused him!)
Hm. A thought occurs to me: Howie, can you swim? Your answer might explain a lot; your silence might do the same.

But -to get back to what interests me- the Japanese required access to oil. The U.S. had frustrated that need, as a matter of policy. Essentially, we were already at war. (Embargoes, sanctions and such are all means of warfare…) That had consequences.
Is it reasonable to think nobody on our side understood that?
No, sir! We are not all Howies! We took risks, and -perhaps too haphazardly- relied upon our strengths, which did finally allow us to prevail.
But Japan too must have known that we would oppose them…

Hitler's Germany was actually a distraction. Only our "affection" for Britain -and infernal politics- caused us to get involved, there…

Yes, Howie. its always a tragedy when men die in war-time. But the blame should be placed on those politicians who crafted the policies that made war inevitable.
———————————————————
Yes, RJ, I did like the Sgt. Rock and Blackhawk comics, way back when! :) Good catch! Now, make your point…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: A sad reminder of an American tragedy of

Reply #17 –
I made my point on the re-interring and do not need to write a book to explain it except to the Oakdale mindset.
"Quit you like men:be strong"