What's Going on in the Americas?

Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 259851 times)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1450 – 2021-12-24, 10:50:07

And, yeah, let's not forget the events surrounding January 6, 2020:

Both the mayor of D.C. (effectively, the governor) and the Speaker of the House (in charge of the Capitol Police) refused advice from the President and the D.C.P.D. to call up a National Guard contingent... Still, no protestors/rioters were armed; and only one person was killed: an unarmed protester shot by one of Pelosi's security detail.
My "take" on it is straightforward: Pelosi (and other Democrats) were hoping for a riot, did nothing to prevent it, and were sore-disappointed that it fizzled out with so little impact. But -for a Party still committed to "Russian Collusion"- it was good enough! They'd get their talking points...
And they're still trying to get some decent mileage from them, with the House Select Committee... (How's that going, by the way?

)

Back to the current administration's mandates, the Supreme Court is set to decide their fate.

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 02:37:05

Such as? (to be followed by no examples from you)

Deleterious effects of Biden's proposed vaccine mandates? Staffing problems in police departments, fire departments, hospitals nation-wide and the military. Old Joe seems just capable enough to piss of everybody by "just doing something"...unconstitutional.
(And by not doing something unconstitutional... Look at all those degree'd Democrats, upset that he hasn't been able to commit the nation's taxpayers to "forgiving" their student loans!)
Remember the good old days when a mere tweet was enough for some?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1451 – 2021-12-24, 11:56:41

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 10:50:07

Deleterious effects of Biden's proposed vaccine mandates?

Biden's vaccine mandates are 100% the same as Trump's, with 100% the same effects. It's been the same Fauci policy all along both under Trump and under Biden. You worry 0% about the effects under Trump, but a 100% of the same effects under Biden, 100% toeing the party line. Have a continued good one!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1452 – 2021-12-24, 12:04:25

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 03:56:41

Biden's vaccine mandates are 100% the same as Trump's, with 100% the same effects.

You don't know what "mandate" means?

Yeah, Merry Christmas to you! Few feel the need to make that political. (Although some have tried...)

Just for fun: https://wmbriggs.com/post/38518/

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1453 – 2021-12-24, 12:18:06

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 12:04:25

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 03:56:41
Biden's vaccine mandates are 100% the same as Trump's, with 100% the same effects.
You don't know what "mandate" means?

Yup, keep pretending as if mask and vaccine mandates are a Biden thing, instead of the same Fauci policy all along. You are not just thin on facts - you are full of alternative anti-facts, no matter how self-contradictory!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1454 – 2021-12-24, 14:00:18

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 04:18:06

mask and vaccine mandates are a Biden thing, instead of the same Fauci policy all along

What makes you think Fauci has the power to mandate, anything? When did Congress grant him or his office such power?

I noticed you had no response to a correction jax made a while back: Manchin isn't one Senator obstructing Biden's Build Back Better bulls**t, he's one of fifty-one Senators blocking it! But that's how many Democrats see things: Technically, they've got control of the Senate -- and they should be able to do anything they want!
Were I a strong enough believer, I'd thank God we're not a parliamentary system...

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1455 – 2021-12-24, 14:14:35

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 14:00:18

What makes you think Fauci has the power to mandate, anything? When did Congress grant him or his office such power?

What makes you think I think Fauci mandates things? It's your muddled brain. The same brain who sees the policies of Biden as any different from Trump's!

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 14:00:18

I noticed you had no response to a correction jax made a while back: Manchin isn't one Senator obstructing Biden's Build Back Better bulls**t, he's one of fifty-one Senators blocking it!

I have no response because I have no opinion on it, and no opinion on it because it is not (directly) related to the covid/pandemic matters. For you, on the other hand, anything goes to bash Democrats, topical or not. Even when you are in some way topical, you are off the cliff and far removed from reality. But this one is not even topical.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1456 – 2021-12-24, 14:30:25

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 06:14:35

The same brain who sees the policies of Biden as any different from Trump's!

Trump mandated masking and vaccination? When? [Unnecessary and offensive verbiage intentionally ignored.]

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1457 – 2021-12-24, 14:34:16

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 14:30:25

Trump mandated masking and vaccination? When? [Unnecessary and offensive verbiage intentionally ignored.]

Trump wore a mask, occasionally. And he definitely got the vaccines. Was it because of policy or no policy?

Do your own homework. Yeah, I know you never will. You never have an example, evidence, a fact or a point. Like, never once. It is rather tiring that I know about everything in America much better than you do, even though in some sense it is easy, because you know nothing.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1458 – 2021-12-24, 14:43:35

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 06:34:16

Trump wore a mask, occasionally. And he definitely got the vaccines.

He did indeed! And on Fauci's recommendations asked others to do the same... As I suspected and as much as said previously: You don't know the meaning of "mandate"... (Unless to you^[1]think a request from an official is per force a mandate?)

¹The conspiracy theory -that your contrarian nature compels you to quibble and nit-pick for the sake of argument- should be rejected, no? At least, I do you that courtesy. And usually without carping!

↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1459 – 2021-12-24, 15:16:06

Note to all: My apologies, if this back-and-forth between ersi and myself keeps you in other parts of the Americas from joining what has become a fray... That was certainly not my intent in posting.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1460 – 2021-12-24, 15:19:56

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 14:43:35

As I suspected and as much as said previously: You don't know the meaning of "mandate"...

I know you do not do facts, but here is one for you: Neither Trump's nor Biden's executive orders contain the word "mandate". From this fact, I can deduce the meaning you apply to the word "mandate": Democrats are evil! The deduction is confirmed by another thing you said previously:

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 10:20:13

Biden has embraced and enhanced the Obama playbook. (Phone-and-pen "executive" legislating.)

Want me to refer to the executive legislating done by e.g. Reagan? Nah, you don't do facts, ever, so... seriously, do your homework. You lack even the diaper-level basics as it is right now.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1461 – 2021-12-24, 15:36:17

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 07:19:56

Democrats are evil!

Nope. Not it...

man·date
/ˈmanˌdāt/
noun
1. an official order or commission to do something.

Yeah. I think I've got it.

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 07:19:56

Want me to refer to the executive legislating done by e.g. Reagan?

Sure. So long as you don't confuse signing-orders or Executive Orders within the perview of powers granted the President by the constitution or the Congress... (The latter being a bastardization of their authorities of delegation. E.g., The War Powers Act and the AUMF.)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1462 – 2021-12-24, 16:01:55

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 15:36:17

man·date
/ˈmanˌdāt/
noun
1. an official order or commission to do something.

Yeah. I think I've got it.

Congrats for looking up a dictionary. How about looking up the administration's policy instead? I thought that was your topic. I know, it's too hard. You do words, not facts.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 15:36:17

So long as you don't confuse signing-orders or Executive Orders within the perview of powers granted the President by the constitution or the Congress... (The latter being a bastardization of their authorities of delegation. E.g., The War Powers Act and the AUMF.)

Yeah, I get it: Democrats are evil!

So, your principles are (in random order):
- Partisanship
- Democrats are evil!
- Never let a fact on your path

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1463 – 2021-12-24, 16:29:41

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 08:01:55

How about looking up the administration's policy instead?

The Trump administration's policy was to encourage those at risk...
About Executive Orders and such, Congress used to be (and was expected to be) jealous of its powers, as the framers intended! A clear example of this was DACA: Feckless congress-critters refused to do their job. Obama did it for them; the initial result of which, I think was reasonable. When the Republicans regain control of Congress they should enshrine DACA in (constitutional) law!^[1]

¹Does that -in your mind-really translate as "Democrats are evil!"?↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1464 – 2021-12-24, 17:02:56

Quote

Democrats set for showdown over filibuster, voting rights

Democrats are barreling toward a showdown over voting rights and changes to the Senate rules, after months of growing frustration from within the caucus.

The party is under pressure, from both outside groups and lawmakers, to pass federal election legislation as GOP-run state legislatures debate new voting rules and as the start of the 2022 midterm election is fast-approaching.

After watching Senate Republicans block election and voting bills via the filibuster, which requires 60 votes for most legislation to advance, Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) is vowing to bring the fight to a head in January.

“The Senate will consider voting rights legislation, as early as the first week back. … If Senate Republicans continue to abuse the filibuster and prevent the body from considering this bill, the Senate will then consider changes to any rules which prevent us from debating and reaching final conclusion on important legislation,” Schumer wrote in a letter to the caucus. [The Congressional Black Caucus wants the Senate to re-convene, to provide new, federal "voting rights"...as a Christmas gift... -- OakdaleFTL]

But forcing a vote could highlight division within the caucus, where both Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) support the 60-vote threshold. Democrats need both of them to ultimately vote to change the rules.

Voting rights legislation and potential changes to the Senate’s legislative filibuster are linked because Republicans have used the 60-vote hurdle to block bills that would overhaul federal elections or strengthen the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
(more)

That "great" Senate Leader Harry Reid (D - NV) showed us all, it can be done: He engineered the removal of the requirement for all federal judicial nominations except those to the Supreme Court, in order to "pack" the D.C. Circuit...
Then that "horrible and mean, not to mention devious" Addison Mitchell McConnell III (R - KY) used the same maneuver to remove it for Supreme Court nominations....
WWSD? Who knows? Who cares what the hapless Senate Leader Charles Ellis "Chuckie" Schumer (D -NY) would do?

As noted, his own caucus is rightfully leary of risking the complete loss of the filibuster...

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1465 – 2021-12-24, 17:37:03

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-22, 16:33:09

It is what politicians, and Fauci, et al., say. But YMMV.

I find this a very peculiar statement. There are occasionally some politicians with the required expertise, think of the likes of Ronald Plasterk,^[1] although in their role as politicians it's somewhat unlikely that they could actually find enough time to do that which makes them experts in the first place.^[2] But in practice, almost any politician who rejects the scientific conclusions put forward by the independent institution/department/commission headed by the Faucis of this world is talking out of their ass. It's completely backwards to blame politicians for parroting Fauci — it's the exact opposite! If they denied what Fauci's team and colleagues concluded from weeks of analyses and applications of the latest models and studies, they almost certainly wouldn't be worth their salt. Politicians are, however, responsible for which questions they ask the experts.

If you ask what's the way to get rid of the virus, you might get different answers than if you ask how to limit the damage to society, which would likely entail certain compromises.^[3] Politicians are appointed by us to decide what we find socially important. They're not there to blindly implement what the virological experts say is the best way to fight the virus, because there's more to our society than that. They also have to take into account mental health, the economy, etc. But this Fauci guy is not some incompetent figurehead. He is responsible for conveying the findings of tens of thousands of experts around the world to the US government, so they can choose what they do with it. If you ever hear them say anything that goes against Fauci with regard to the science, steer clear unless they can provide a damned good reason.^[4] Something similar applies to "et al." but the details differ significantly. It's not et al's freaking job to know better. If et al. is the proverbial mad uncle they're probably lost, but if they're not it becomes your job to educate them about how science works, as well as to teach them about life before the polio vaccine. In fact being retired makes you part of the same age group as my mom, which means you probably actually knew people who suffered from polio, measles and various other diseases we don't even remember. Here we have an absolute triumph of Euro-American medical science so yeah, let's maybe use vaccines to try to stop mutations.

¹An oncologist, but splitting those hairs would be missing the point. And regardless, he'll still be in the same ballpark as any doctor, surgeon, veterinarian, etc. who doesn't specialize in virology.↵

²For example, you can't just say some claim challenging the consensus is likely to be invalid because it challenges the consensus. You have to actually apply your expert skills or you're not acting as an expert, just as someone who knows the current consensus like any well-informed citizen.↵

³Not to mention experts in fields other than virology!↵

⁴A good reason could be as simple as Fauci's advise is from last week but Dutch Fauci just said that the latest data about Omicron shows…↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1466 – 2021-12-24, 19:15:19

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 16:29:41

About Executive Orders and such, Congress used to be (and was expected to be) jealous of its powers, as the framers intended!

Repubs and their partisans such as yourself have very weird ideas about what the framers intended. No claim of yours about what the framers intended shall pass.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 16:29:41

A clear example of this was DACA: Feckless congress-critters refused to do their job.

Congrats on having an example! But again, before giving an example, do your homework. Trump (administration)'s attempts to roll back DACA backfired in courts on all levels (pretty much like the "evidence" of stolen elections), so based on your own example DACA is clearly constitutional and probably also in line with how framers intended things according to the legal opinion of those who matter:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals

On January 9, 2018, the United States District Court for the Northern District of California temporarily blocked the rescission of the DACA program, ordering the government to renew DACA until further order of the court....

On February 13, 2018, Judge Nicholas Garaufis of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York granted a preliminary injunction ordering the federal government to fully restore the DACA program, including accepting brand new applicants as well as renewals.[159] Moreover, as a rationale for his ruling, Garaufis said that DACA was neither unconstitutional nor in violation of the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) nor the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA).[160]

On February 26, 2018, the Supreme Court declined to hear the Trump administration's request for it to review the lower court order that the administration must continue to accept DACA applications...

On April 24, 2018, John D. Bates, a Senior United States District Judge of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, ruled that the Trump administration must resume accepting new applications for DACA...

On August 3, 2018, Judge Bates said the Trump administration has failed to justify its proposal to end DACA...

On November 12, 2019, the Supreme Court heard arguments for and against the Trump administration's decision to cancel the program.[166] On June 18, 2020, the Supreme Court ruled against the Trump...

Sources to the primary material behind the link.

Do your homework.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1467 – 2021-12-24, 19:34:31

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 09:37:03

Here we have an absolute triumph of Euro-American medical science so yeah, let's maybe use vaccines to try to stop mutations.

(Last things first:) Do you recall the Stanford doc's conjecture about Omicron's genesis? Such wanton mutation probably only possible in patients with untreated AIDS? All the more reason to fund and facilitate AIDS treatments among at-risk populations! Win-win.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 09:37:03

being retired makes you part of the same age group as my mom, which means you probably actually knew people who suffered from polio, measles and various other diseases we don't even remember.

I'm only 69, dude!

Polio - never. Measles - maybe. (The M-M-R II shot was given at age 1yo, and boosted by 6yo... These are live virus vaccines, though attenuated...) so herd immunity likely got me through these straits.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 09:37:03

Politicians are appointed by us to decide what we find socially important.

A slight modification of that formulation: Here, they're supposed to respond to their constituents and their own conscience^[1]. Working within a rules-bound system...doing the possible.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 09:37:03

this Fauci guy is not some incompetent figurehead. He is responsible for conveying the findings of tens of thousands of experts around the world to the US government, so they can choose what they do with it

No; But he's blindered. (How else to explain his machinations to "discredit" the Great Barrington Declaration?)

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 09:37:03

Politicians are, however, responsible for which questions they ask the experts.

Yes, indeed! And the U.S. boasts a large number of research institutions and hospitals. A consensus with many prominent dissenters is -if it functions as a political body- a cabal. The et al. I referred to were government scientists (some of whom resigned rather than continue being ignored by higher-ups...). Likewise, we've got two years' experience with this epidemic, in various of our 50 states and from countries 'round the world.
Our politicians should ask better questions because of it. Luckily for some that happens. Unluckily for others, it doesn't...

¹What a bizarre spelling, eh?

You know what the opposite of Progress is, don't you...?↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1468 – 2021-12-24, 20:01:30

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 19:34:31

What a bizarre spelling, eh?

Because there is "science" in "conscience"? Rather, English pronunciation is weird. Latin would be fine, both spelling and pronunciation.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1469 – 2021-12-24, 20:39:16

And a great many other languages, I've no doubt. But I enjoy English-ed wordplay most -- being a functional monoglot.

(Is the footnote clear, to you? It's one of Mark Twain's little jokes. And more than a few nowadays still believe it's all a big con!)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1470 – 2021-12-24, 20:46:17

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 19:34:31

(Last things first:) Do you recall the Stanford doc's conjecture about Omicron's genesis? Such wanton mutation probably only possible in patients with untreated AIDS? All the more reason to fund and facilitate AIDS treatments among at-risk populations! Win-win.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Is there a worrisome lack of AIDS research in 2021? To my knowledge we're doing at least as much about treating AIDS both here and in the so-called developing world as we always have. The COVID vaccine rollout is an awful lot more problematic; we've got millions upon millions of the things over here in storage because apparently no one considered insufficient infrastructure (with freezers etc.) over where it's needed when they ordered them or something?

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 19:34:31

I'm only 69, dude!

My mother is only 73. The last big (Dutch) polio epidemic was in 1956.^[1] The vaccine was in 1957. You do the math.

Those couple years might make a difference in remembering the act of administering the vaccine itself, but the polio painted world you grew up in was identical.

¹Not counting the Bible Belt outbreak of 1971, which could easily repeat today for the record.↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1471 – 2021-12-24, 21:07:06

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 12:46:17

I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

We're -most of the Developed West- doing more and more... Logistics and cultural resistance are formidable obstacles. But do we really want to ignore the likelihood of another massively mutated strain of SARS-CoV-2?
Look at what a dither many are in over Omicron! (Deaths, hospitalizations. Not "cases": Panic-induced policies have caused enough pain already...)^[1]

¹And please: No more models from Imperial College's Neil Ferguson!

↵

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1472 – 2021-12-24, 21:32:16

I found where your talking points are coming from, Oakdale.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=317ODBLJOxM[/video]

Rand Paul talking about scientific justification without having a scientific justification himself. And other bunkum.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1473 – 2021-12-24, 23:02:43

Quote from: ersi on 2021-12-24, 13:32:16

I found where your talking points are coming from, Oakdale.

As usual, ersi, you're wrong... On two counts:

I don't have "talking points" (II have some pretty firm opinions, though!.)
I wouldn't take any one "authority" as gospel

Remember: Trust, but verify!

BTW: My congressman is Josh Harder (D -CA); my Senators are Dianne Feinstein (D -CA) and -oh, drat- who did Newsom replace Kamala Harris with? The fellow who was our most recently-moved-up lack-luster AG Xavier Becerra? No...he's Secretary of Health & Human Services for Biden. Alex Padilla, our erstwhile Secretary of State! (Easy gig in what is essentially a one-party state... You betcha!)
If I could choose one, I'd pick either Devin Nunes (no tilde, he's Portuguese) who, unfortunately is giving up his seat next year, or Tom McClintock... But neither represent CA-10 and, since they're Californian Republicans, it seems Harder doesn't work with them. Go figure?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #1474 – 2021-12-25, 17:36:47

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2021-12-24, 21:07:06

Quote from: Frenzie on 2021-12-24, 12:46:17
I'm not really sure what you're getting at.
We're -most of the Developed West- doing more and more... Logistics and cultural resistance are formidable obstacles. But do we really want to ignore the likelihood of another massively mutated strain of SARS-CoV-2?
Look at what a dither many are in over Omicron! (Deaths, hospitalizations. Not "cases": Panic-induced policies have caused enough pain already...)^[1]

There are a couple of issues here. As you said before, last things first. This entire time, Republicans have been focusing on deaths in their attempts to trivialize this virus to the point where it almost seems they forgot people get sick and then die, not vice versa. I've been in many arguments where the anti-mask/anti-vax person will say something idiotic such as "But hardly anyone has died for the 'surge' and I tell them to give it a couple of weeks. In this matter, I was correct 100% of the time. Yes, someone claiming to right 100% of the time is arrogant in nearly all cases, but not this time. Why? Deaths are always a trailing indicator of the disease's severity. With Covid, the true death rate won't be known for years. Let me explain. Many survivors emerge from the other side of the disease with permeant damage that will likely yet shorten their lives, despite the "recovery".

Meanwhile, despite the anti-mask/anti-vax crowd's claim to the contrary, the current death toll is undercounted . Note this has been known since last March, at the minimum.

Now onto the mutations. Your claim the vaccines themselves are causing the mutations is an anti-vax talking point, despite your claim that you don't have talking points. They are not directly causing mutations. What does causing them is the virus infecting more people and reproducing. Simply put, people refusing to get vaccinated and refusing to wear their masks are creating more chances for the virus to infect more people and multiply and thus mutate. I fail to understand how someone as intelligent as yourself doesn't understand this. Actually I do; you allowed yourself to get wrapped up in the politics of the situation and not the science. I beg you to prove me wrong on the count (but using the psuedo-science of the anti-vax/anti-mask movement for the love of God!)

¹And please: No more models from Imperial College's Neil Ferguson!

↵