Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

Even if the U.S. deserts NATO, a core of European nations  would continue it. Begrudgingly, perhaps; but competently.

a  commercial growth potential.

we in the West had a negative so sill being head-banging ridiculous

Speaking of which (I know: Off Topic!), Your lot down south and the French still make airplanes?

how is it the tens of millions bad off and on food stamps don't get reduced?

You are skipping things Oakdale!

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/
Moscow handed over its proposals to the United States this week as tensions rose over the Russian troop build-up near Ukraine.

It says it is responding to what it sees as threats to its own security from Ukraine's increasingly close relations with NATO and aspirations to become an alliance member, even though there is no imminent prospect of Kyiv being allowed to join.

The Russian proposals were set out in two documents - a draft agreement with NATO countries and a draft treaty with the United States, both published by the foreign ministry.

The first, among other points, would require Russia and NATO not to deploy additional troops and weapons outside the countries where they were in May 1997 - before the accession to NATO of any of the former communist states in East Europe that for decades were dominated by Moscow. It would mean NATO abandoning any military activities in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia.

[...]

Some Western political analysts suggested Russia was knowingly presenting unrealistic demands which it knew would not be met to provide a diplomatic distraction while maintaining military pressure on Ukraine.

"Something is very wrong with this picture, the pol(itical) side appears to be a smokescreen," Michael Kofman, a Russia specialist at Virginia-based research organization CNA, wrote on Twitter.

Sam Greene, professor of Russian politics at King's College London, said President Vladimir Putin was "drawing a line around the post-Soviet space and planting a 'keep out' sign".

"It's not meant to be a treaty: it's a declaration," he said. "But that doesn’t necessarily mean this is a prelude to war. It’s a justification for keeping Moscow’s hair-trigger stance, in order to keep Washington and others off balance."

Germany is blocking North Atlantic Treaty Organization ally Estonia from giving military support to Ukraine by refusing to issue permits for German-origin weapons to be exported to Kyiv as it braces for a potential Russian invasion.

Unlike the U.S., Britain, Poland and other allies, the German government has declined to export lethal weapons directly to Ukraine.

In the case of Estonia, a small country on Russia’s northern border, Berlin is also refusing to allow a third country to send artillery to Ukraine because the weaponry originated in Germany, according to Estonian and German officials.

That is how the weapons control system works, when it works.

From another angle, there's also what was imposed on Germany after WWII, so one might question how or why Germany has any say in military matters.

This is what always struck me as the utmost idiocy about Obama and Trump's nonsensical claims. Germany isn't spending 2% of its GDP on its military? Gee, who'd have thought, that's exactly how we wanted it!

Germany is a NATO country. So, either NATO works or it doesn't.

This is what always struck me as the utmost idiocy about Obama and Trump's nonsensical claims. Germany isn't spending 2% of its GDP on its military? Gee, who'd have thought, that's exactly how we wanted it! Suggesting that Germany should spend more than France in absolute numbers is just ignorant madness, at the very least until we have European army.

The only way Ukraine would be joining NATO would be in the aftermath of a Russian invasion.

Russian attacks are endangering Ukraine’s world-leading medicinal chemistry industry, which supplies scientists across the globe with molecular building blocks needed for early drug development.